Religious Right Takes On Its Own Myth
So there is a new book out, written by Bob Heath, the leader of Kids for Christ USA, the purpose of which is to prove to Americans that the Bible is not, in fact, illegal in public schools. According to One News Now:
In his new book How Are You Doing That?, Heath talks about how students have every right to establish Bible and Christian clubs in public schools. He says the court’s decision makes it very clear that voluntary prayer and Bible-reading are completely legal in public schools.
However, as Ed Brayton over at Dispatches points out:
I would love to see Heath or anyone else find a quote from the ACLU or any other separationist group saying that the Supreme Court made the Bible illegal in public schools. That nonsense rhetoric has come exclusively from the religious right, not from our side. Then they wonder why some principals and administrators don’t understand the law.
Leave it to the Religious Right to take on their own propaganda.
A bit off topic but as you know, Dobson and his sychophant Perkins held their values voter conference the 20th in Washington and of course Max Blumenthal was there to film as much as he could. I think it’s worth a watch.
Christianity, just as much as Islam, teaches children that unquestioned faith is a virtue. You don’t have to make the case for what you believe. If somebody announces that it is part of his faith, the rest of society, whether of the same faith, or another, or of none, is obliged, by ingrained custom, to “respect” it without question; respect it until the day it manifests itself in a horrible massacre like the destruction of the World Trade Center, or the London or Madrid bombings. Then there is a great chorus of disownings, as clerics and “community leaders” (who elected them, by the way?) line up to explain that this extremism is a perversion of the “true” faith. But how can there be a perversion of faith, if faith, lacking objective justification, doesn’t have any demonstrable standard to pervert?
Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion
I brought this from Vjack’s (who comments here from time to time) site and the comments are good.
Dale,
Excellent points! Sam Harris says the same thing in his excellent book “The End of Faith”. He points out howl ridiculous - and dangerous - it is that the myths, lies, contradictions and downright craziness of Christianity and other religions are automatically accorded respect because of “belief” and “faith”, while the crazy rantings of the psychotic only land him in the nuthouse. He makes the interesting point that craziness is judged based on how many people ascribe to it. A weird, illogical idea with one believer = insane whacko; weird, illogical idea with millions of believers = religion.
Dorris,
When did Sam Harris become a expert on Christianity and religion? The rants of a esctasy-wacked, humanistic atheist are hardly a credible source. When the pendulum swings to the fringe (harris and dawkins) you get skewed, unbalanced opinion. The End of Faith shares nothing more than an opinion.
Shots fired!
I think I might rather respect an informed opinion than I would a blnd belief. hmmmm?
MJ…you certainly get points for masochistic staying power. I have been out of the loop for months, but by gosh and by golly, the Mouthpiece of Jesus is still standing firm, ready to spout the Party Line the moment us evil-lutionists put in an appearance! The only other place I’ve seen such constancy was in the state mental hospital where I did nursing rounds years ago. There were patients there who believed they were Jesus, or spoke for him, for decades without fail, never dissuaded by logic or psychotherapy or any contradictory evidence whatsoever. Medication sometimes helped…
As to your statement - Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins have probably studied the Bible and the Koran in far more depth than you ever have, up to and including an understanding of the original languages of said Scriptures, and are well-armed with experience in the disciplines of logic, ethics and critical thinking - all fields in which “religious” leaders seem sorely lacking. You might try actually reading some books of varying points of view and expanding your mind, rather than just repeating the rhetoric you religious leaders spew out. I find, however, that most deeply religious people are also deeply afraid of independent thinking.
And another point, MJ - you said Harris and Dawkins share nothing more than opinions. What, I ask, do you share? Irrefutable facts? Empirical evidence? What proves that the Bible is anything more than the opinion of some Iron-Age goat herders?
For more on the similarities of Christian fundamentalism and Islam, watch “Jesus Camp” - especially the part where the crying, traumatized kids are being exhorted to “die and kill” for Jesus. Can you say “madrassa”? I found this documentary both terrifying and sickening. That woman preacher ought to be in jail for child abuse.
Let’s get frothy!
There is no separation, but an anthem to war.
There is no appreciation, but a victory over the misunderstood.
The “children” of this generation are spoiled and rotting with an anger. Who mediates central anger?
I am going to kill bush bunnies.
Yah, cha, cha, cha
Dorris,
Sam Harris is just another in histories long line of folk who think they have some powerful insight and have deemed the followers of Christ the most dangerous people on earth. The the same spirit that motivates Sam Harris saw to it that faithful Christians were tortured, maimed, drawn, quartered, burned alive, beheaded, fed to wild beasts and killed by gladiators in ancient Rome. Sam thinks he can pervert “reason and logic” to convince the likes of you that Christians and religious folk are evil, deluded and the bain of society. I can see that you fall for the trap of his perverted mind.
Hey, dude - take it easy on the 2,5-dimethoxy-4-bromoamphetamine.
Yes, MJ, I guess you would be able to characterize Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens in this way. But tell us, are there any names you can think of the pervert the Christian mind about the “non-believers” of the world?
MJ - how about the people that the “faithful Christians” have tortured, maimed, drawn, quartered, burned alive, beheaded, and fed to wild beasts? Am I missing something? Was it really the atheists that ran the Inquisition? The Salem witch trials? The mass burnings of witches (usually any woman who had the misfortune to be old and ugly), the burning, hanging, thumbscrewing, etc., of heretics (anyone who had an independent thought regarding the state of nature), the stoning of women who had the audacity to get themselves raped, and so on and so forth. Is that the motivating “spirit” you’re talking about, MJ? Too bad it got to the Christians, too.
Are you able, MJ, to think of any that “good Christians” burned alive?
How about lynchings and such by folks in white hoods who call themselves Christians?
How about it MJ?
bush bunnies
OMG - I think I figured it out. Marj is really Dinesh D’Souza in disguise.
Mark,
Were you there? I know your anger. Let’s talk about anger. I too am angry…
Richie - take your Haldol and go to bed.
Disgusted?
YES
Dorris,
4k often hoping for origami
MJ said: “Sam thinks he can pervert “reason and logic” to convince the likes of you that Christians and religious folk are evil, deluded and the bain of society.”
Bane, not bain. But how exactly does Harris pervert reason and logic? Fundamentalism can hardly be called reasonable or logical.
Glass bottom bitch! Get REAL!
Richard, what exactly were you meaning when you said to me last night, “Albatross, watchers watch.” ??
Richard - I find public displays of self-loathing to be very disheartening for all involved. Do yourself a favor - catch some zzzzs and call us in the morning.
Who are you calling a glass bottom bitch, and what in the hell does it mean? “Angry” isn’t the right word to describe your posts these past two days, Richard.
We are busy hunting trolls that want us NOT to be busy. Sniff your vinegar cunt until you lose all concept of TRUTHINESS.
Piss off, think off, shut off, and finally phuck off!
Marj - followers of Christ are not the problem - distorters, hijackers and perverters of the legend of Jesus are.
You’re weak, unreasoned, and pathetic as usual jumper. Your bs is old hat. The magic you have so heavily invested so much emotional collateral, so much wish you or ANYONE could show to be REAL, is just a delusional fantasy you cling to for comfort. You are a dishonest, blinded, idiot for whom which I have no respect. Oh yeah, and you’re also a proven LIAR that uses LIES and DECEIT to prop up their argumentation in an effort to make it seem legitimate. You and yours have nothing to show for all of your labored blind-ass-beliefs. They are fake, they have faked you, and you are a sucker. Call your “deity” down on that you moron.
Richard - trust us - you’ve fallen off the wagon and can’t get up. I suggest you just lie still and wait until morning.
MJ - During the Black Death of the 14th century, faithful Christians throughout Europe resorted to the eminently reasonable and logical acts of flagellation and Jew-burning to bring a halt to the plague. Yep, when overcome by disease, the wisdom of the Bible tells us that the best way to spend our time and energy is in praying, beating ourselves bloody for our sins, and blaming Jews and heretics. Christianity in action - the model of effectiveness.
Marj - next you and bill will use our comments to attempt to convince others that this site is anti-Christian when in fact, it’s just anti-bullshitting liars and fake-ass wannabe saints. You’d be contemptible if you weren’t so pathetic.
Now we raise some thoughts.
Richy 630 362 325 (Richard Edwin Kobzey) thinks his shit don’t stink. Ima mean nasty KKKunt. GEET HIM!!!
Can you imagine the Bush Dynasty? HOOderOOF.
Send me some Gilligans - woosies!!!
Hey, richie, does your Mom know what you do on your computer in your bedroom? Did you get caught watching pay-per-view porn with your little friends and get your TV taken away? Richie, I’m gonna tell on you! You better go to bed now!
Alex,
How was the gay bar tonight? Did you score?
C.T.
“distorters, hijackers and perverters”
Exactly the category that I put Dawkins and Harris.
Good, Mark. Don’t address any of the points that others made.
Poor persecuted Christians…
C.T.
When people begin using Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris as reference points for “logic and reason” about Christianity then I laughing out loud. What a hoot.
MJ - whereas you, with your advanced degrees in bioethics, philosophy, sociology, theology and the like just chortle at the audacity of the like of those atheist free-thinkers and their ridiculous assumptions based on….REAL LIFE!! Facts - who needs ‘em, right?
Dorris,
FYI - Jesus was a Jew. Do Christians that you know have something against Jews?
Marj, careful you don’t choke on your own gall.
Dorris,
Facts - distort em’, right?
Dorris,
Oops, I forgot - you probably don’t know any real Christians.
Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris are only the latest in a long line of thinking people who have made it their business to point out the logical inconsistencies and pitfalls of religion. I find it laughable that MJ thinks he and his ilk are the intellectual equals of the likes of Bertrand Russell. Want a “hoot”? Imagine a debate between any of the afore-mentioned authors and our MJ.
November 1st, 2007 at 10:43 pm
Mark Jumper Says:
Alex,
How was the gay bar tonight? Did you score?
Marj - was that you asking as a Christian or were you just jealous?
MJ - yes, I actually do know some christians who refer to Jews as “christ-killers”. And it certainly wasn’t Hindus who killed the Jews of Strasbourg in during the Black Death. And I do know some “real” Christians - a whole five-hundred-member strong family of good Protestant church-goers. That’s why I’m not one.
Marj - the fact that Jesus (if he in fact existed) was a Jew only makes it more ironic that fringe groups like the KKK call themselves Christians all the while persecuting Jews. Hitler was the archetypical hypocrite in that arena.
Yeah, uh-huh. After all, Christians are simply “perfected Jews,” right, Markie?
LOL, Alba - referencing Marj’s alter-ego Ann Coulter.
Dorris,
Bertrand Russell vs. Anselm
Bertrand Russell vs. Aquinas
Bertrand Russell vs. Luther
Bertrand Russell vs. Mohler
Bertrand Russell vs. Patterson
Bertrand Russell vs. Carter
Bertrand Russell vs. Gorman
Hey Dorris, have you been worshipping ol’ Bertrand as some kind of diety?
Dorris says:
“Thats why I’m not one”.
How original.
November 1st, 2007 at 10:43 pm
Mark Jumper Says:
Alex,
How was the gay bar tonight? Did you score?
Marj - was that you asking as a Christian or were you just jealous?
Poor Dorris - Christians really make her uncomfortable.
If you take your medicine, the delusion will go away.
Oh, and MJ - I like to quote your own Book - “by their fruits shall ye know them” - and judge christianity by its effects. It hasn’t fared too well, has it? In fact, there’s never been a worse cause of discontent, discord, warfare, hatred, bigotry and injustice. But I know you won’t respond to this with anything even remotely resembling reasoned discourse. If you are truly the believer you claim to be, allied with an all-powerful god, why not let him speak through you? Oh? You are? Then why does he sound so friggin’ stupid?
And I haven’t been struck dead by lightning from god’s finger yet, either. Guess He wasn’t listening to you.
Marj - are you offering your advise to Dorris as a Christian or an asshole?
Bertrand Russell vs. Mohler????
Rev Albert Mohler vs. Russell?? You’ve got to be kidding.
I think Markie was hitting the sauce with ol’ Richard.
Marj is hitting more than the sauce. He’s hitting his head against the wall of separation.
Passive acceptance of the teacher’s wisdom is easy to most boys and girls. It involves no effort of independent thought, and seems rational because the teacher knows more than his pupils; it is moreover the way to win the favour of the teacher unless he is a very exceptional man. Yet the habit of passive acceptance is a disastrous one in later life. It causes man to seek and to accept a leader, and to accept as a leader whoever is established in that position.
-Bertrand Russell
While Mark handles snakes and eats locusts or whatever, how about discussing the topic at the beginning of this thread - Bibles and prayer in school? Any thoughts out there from someone besides crackheads like Richie and god-trolls like MJ?
Anyone? Anyone?
Marj, seriously, why the gay remark? Are you a closet queen looking for friends? Or just a typical Xtian hypocrite?
Were you in awe of all of your school teachers, Mark? Aim to please them, all? I’d bet yes.
Thank you, Albatross. Thank you.
Has anyone seen “Jesus Camp”? If so, what are your thoughts about this? I thought it was excellent, especially since the filmmakers refrained from interjecting their own opinions and just let the thing speak for itself. The kids were so pathetic - they had absolutely no choice in the matter; they were brainwashed from day one. That’s the goal, I think, of getting prayer in school, “intelligent design”, the Ten Commandments, and all the rest of it. They’ve got to indoctrinate the kids before their powers of critical thinking develop.
Dorris, I think it is beyond reasonable to presume that there are many teachers capable of discussing the bible and leaving their personal bias out. This applies to all - Christian or not. It is best left to the individual to seek out what they want to know regarding religion.
Fundies want the Bible in school beginning at a young age because children are so easily influenced and subtle (maybe not so subtle)coercion will occur. Mark my words. Captive audience. See my above Bertrand Russell quote. Entirely applicable to the topic of the thread.
Dorris,
Call Harris and have all the “reasoned” discourse you can absorb. You’ll be two peas in a pod.
OK, Dorris, back to the lesson at hand….this is from the link at the top of the page regarding this book by Bob Heath:
Heath’s book is meant to be the ultimate resource for launching Bible schools in all of America’s 60,000 public schools.
Heath know as well as anyone, that the SCOTUS never made it illegal to carry a Bible in school or anywhere else. He is promoting a false premise in order to sell books, first and foremost. Second, he is pandering to the RR by promising something he can’t deliver — Bible schools in public schools.
Anyone, of any religion, if they were truly confident in their faith, and completely honest with their children, would encourage their children to learn everything they could about all religions before asking their children to commit to their religion.
C.T., Mark gets real excitable on the topic of homosexuality. Don was once able to discuss very reasonably the hate crimes bill and Mark actually was persuaded that it was not granting any “special privileges” to punish the crimes committed against gays because of their sexuality, but then he was extremely bitter and nasty in the days and weeks that followed.
He’s still learning to perfect the ‘love your neighbor as yourself…without condition that he be like you.’
That’s how my Mom raised me C.T. She answered all my questions, when she could, or showed me how to find the answers, and never once tried to convince me that her beliefs were the one and only way. I have done the same with my kids.
Dorris - we had a good discussion about Jesus Camp some months ago. I was particularly disgusted by that crazy lady that tried to justify training her kids to be Killers for Khrist, oops, I mean God’s Warriors, because there are maniacs overseas training their kids to be jihadists.
ditto, Alba
Albatross - I totally agree. Loved your quote. That’s why I thanked you for it - such a refreshing change from banging my head against the blank wall of MJ!
Just last week, at my college, groups of men blocked all the entrances and tried to force bibles on every student as we arrived in the morning. Campus security was called, but they could only prevent them from entering the buildings - apparently, it was perfectly legal for them to stand outside. One of my friends asked the Bible People if it would be okay for her to stand in front of his church, blocking the entrances, and showering churchgoers with atheist pamphlets or copies of Darwin’s Origin of Species. The guy looked totally shocked - why, that would be an outrage! “Really?” replied my friend. “And how is what you’re doing any different?”
“Because” said the Bible Guy, “This is the Word of God!”
Disgusting! This has occurred, not on the grounds of public schools, but right outside the gates.
Try doing that at any Protestant church, they’d have the police there in the bat of an eye.
Dorris - I think your friend had a good idea. She should do exactly that and have somebody tape the reaction. That would make a good You-Tube video.
CT, re: Jesus Camp. Sorry I missed out on that discussion, I’ll bet it was a good one. The most interesting part of the film for me was near the end, where the Krazy Kristian Lady painted herself into a corner while being interviewed by the radio talk-show host, who claimed he was a Christian who was outraged at what she and her fellow fundamentalists were doing to Christianity. He asked her how her version of Christianity differed from Islamic fundamentalism. It was the only time the ordinarily motor-mouthed woman was at a loss for words.
Jesus Camp Shuts Down, But Fischer Says Her ‘Indoctrination’ Will Continue
Other Christian camp leaders say her camp and documentary about it don’t represent mainstream Christian camping.
Sarah Pulliam | posted 11/13/2006
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/novemberweb-only/146-12.0.html
Somewhere (I think it was on PZ Meyer’s site, “Pharyngula”) I recently read that Cambridge and Oxford Universities were thinking of eliminating their Theology schools because it was a “dying” field. Apparently they feel that, in light of current scientific knowledge, continuing to offer a degree in theology was like offering degrees in astrology or alchemy. If I find the link, I’ll put it up here.
from the link above — The camp featured in the controversial documentary Jesus Camp will shut down due to negative response from the film, according to camp director Becky Fischer.
due to negative response from the film - I love it.
Chalk one up for the good guys. Hip-hip-hurrah.
Albatross - well, that’s some good news, anyway. Fischer has been smoked out, and hopefully a few parents are having second thoughts about subjecting their kids to that crap. It’s hard to sleep at night thinking about all those kids in the film, though. You wonder if there’s any hope for them.
When I saw Jesus Camp, I immediately sent a copy of it to some family members of mine who are devout Protestants. To their credit, they watched it and denounced the version of religion Fischer was forcing on those kids. They also showed it in church, as a way to raise awareness of how “true” Christianity is being hijacked by fundamentalist nutjobs. My personal atheism aside, I give them credit for having somewhat open minds. Would that more Christians be so.
On last week’s open I posted about a new documentary coming out. It’s called “For the Bible Tells Me So.”
Google it Markie. Since you’re such a homophobe, you might find it interesting.
The camp was appropriately situated on Devil’s Lake. How’s that for ironic?!
Jesus Camp may have closed down, but Becky Fisher’s access to children is alive and well:
http://www.kidsinministry.com/
The YouTube idea for picketing churches is great. The Bible People were hovering around again a day or two later, but someone pulled a fire alarm and the whol campus was evacuated. The Bible People were not seen again - perhaps a mystical connection somewhere in there?
Yep, if you want to hear outraged screams of persecution, just do anything in front of a church. Dis God in a public forum and get your eyebrows singed off by flames of holy wrath. Object to your Buddhist, Jewish, or atheist child being subjected to Bible readings or prayers before football games at school, and get run out of town. Pass out those Dawkins books at school, and you’ll need to get into the witness protection program to get the persecuted christians off your back.
Yeah, Devil’s Lake. And not one of the parents or preachers or kids in the film saw the irony in that. Really, really sad.
TarDS
Dorris is angry…
Dimwits don’t know from whence theys dimwits are barked against.
You can’t sing a lie without a laugh.
Mark, a good question has been asked…why the remark directed to Alex, implying that he’s gay?
You did that because you were trying to insult him.
And your thinking that implying that someone is gay is an insult IS insulting to not only gays, but straight people who have gay loved ones…family members or friends.
It was a cheap shot.
I sure wish I could score at a gay bar.
Funny how quickly Marj runs away with his tail between his skinny legs whenever he gets caught with his hand in the cookie jar of hypocrisy.
Richard has gone bonkers.
Mark Jumper attempts to insult Alex this way all the time. He thinks he’s witty.
I am completely baffled by Richard….and saddened at the possibility that he reallly is having a problem. I always hate to see a person humiliate themselves publicly; unless, of course, that person is a complete asshole like…..well, you know who I mean (and I don’t mean Richard)…
I understand, C.T. I don’t know if you were here b4; Richard gave me quite a scare with some comments that were made, but they weren’t belligerent and vulgar. They were more desperate. Richard has lowered himself to nothing in my book for the comments made last night. I have no idea whether they were directed at me or Dorris, or anyone else for that matter, but now…big fat zero. I’d also like to know how certain words went right by moderation, when we can’t even say soci*al*sm.
Well, at least it’s Friday. See ya over on the open thread.
CT, Alba,
I wasn’t commenting last evening (working on a new project) but I was reading richard’s stuff and he did get out over deep water.
He has always been rather eccentric in his demeanor, and he’s made me laugh out loud a few times. It’s apparent that he is well read and articulate when he’s sober, which has been rare in his latest appearances.
Something has definitely afflicted him, Dale…I’d still like to know how and why certain word choices escaped moderation.
Alba,
Nothing he says reflects on us. That is the nature of a blog. And I am sure he will feel like crap when and if he reads his stuff sober. He has had to apologize before.
As anonymous commentors, I don’t think there is any reason to take anything like that as a personal affront.
Yes, but…
I think Richard treads that thin line between genuis and insanity!
So like the tight-rope walker he teeters on either side?
It could be that he isn’t teetering so much as he is falling. I hope not.
Poor mj just gets so frustrated when I call him on his vacuous lecturing. So instead of meeting my challenges on an intellectual and reasonable level, he reverts to third-grade tactics of name-calling - which just underscores his immature emotional scope and perspective.
MJ you idiot - asshole. (my name-calling - because NOBODY is or cares to be either). Being homosexual is no more an insult than being heterosexual (as expressed already). Being a deluded moron, carrying on conversations with imaginary beings, proclaiming perfect knowledge that has no parallel in reality and no evidence of being real, is a scourge of humanity I hope soon it realizes and sends those like you to gentle, caring, human hands of compassion, reason, and rehabilitation.
Your confused, self-righteous, proclamations are so annoyingly empty of ANYTHING that can be corroborated or considered different than the rantings of a lunatic that you should really seek help, or stay indoors until you expire.
Holy father of Israel,
what more can we do?
than bare to every generation
a witness just for you?
Hatikvah is the Zionist cry – the dumbies don’t know why
Though their spirits are unyielding
The enemies will never die.
Rise up the hateful dream of dreams.
Keeping till we cry.
Bye bye to ancient falicies, bye-bye to those who cry.
Holy father of Israel,
what more can we do?
than bare to every generation
a witness just for you?
Hatikvah is the Zionist cry – the dumbies don’t know why
Though their spirits are unyielding
The enemies will never die.
Rise up the hateful dream of dreams.
Keeping till we cry.
Bye bye to ancient falicies, bye-bye to those who cry.
Holy father of Israel,
what more can we do?
than bare to every generation
a witness just for you?
Hatikvah is the Zionist cry – the dumbies don’t know why
Though their spirits are unyielding
The enemies will never die.
Rise up the hateful dream of dreams.
Keeping till we cry.
Bye bye to ancient falicies, bye-bye to those who cry.
v
VHoly father of Israel,
what more can we do?
than bare to every generation
a witness just for you?
Hatikvah is the Zionist cry – the dumbies don’t know why
Though their spirits are unyielding
Their enemies never die.
Rise up the hateful dream of dreams.
Keeping till we cry.
I have never been the god. I AM
Bye bye to ancient falicies, bye-bye to those who cry.
Sorry that I’m not so smart.
Holy father of Israel,
what more can we do?
than bare to every generation
a witness just for you?
Hatikvah is the Zionist cry – the dumbies don’t know why
Though their spirits are unyielding
Their enemies never die.
Rise up the hateful dream of dreams.
Keeping till we cry.
I have never been the god. I AM
Bye bye to ancient falicies, bye-bye to those who cry.
Any questions?
The OLD Bush is going to die.
Death-pool anyone?
Excellent retort, Alex.
MJ, one day you were here, and you said something so close to my “live and let live” that I near fell off my chair. Sometimes I think you are so close to believing that ideal. Are you afraid it would make you less Christian to just accept people for who they are? You and others say I am anti-Christian, but you know what it is really…I hate pompous asses. Especially the pompous asses who think they know something that really is unknowable, hence the reason we call it faith.
I’ve been confused about this with you, but especially how you wrestle with equal rights for homosexuals. Why is this an issue for people? All living, breathing creatures should be equal. How can justify your hostility towards gays? What if one of the finest God-loving Christians you knew came to you and told you he or she was gay? Could you find him or her any less deserving of your God’s love? Or yours?
I recommended an upcoming documentary called “The Bible Tells Me So.” It’s one person’s idea of how maybe the Bible has been perverted to represent a group mentality that only interprets it “their” way. That is all religion is, MJ. Herd mentality.
I thought I once heard a Christian say it was about a personal relationship, no? Only as long as the “list of guidelines” is understood the same by all?
I think it is absolutely time to realize that I won’t be there.
Dum-dums!
Oh, well, rich. Sorry you couldn’t resolve your problems.
630 362 325
November 2nd, 2007 at 11:20 pm
Alex Says:
…So instead of meeting my challenges on an intellectual and reasonable level, he reverts to third-grade tactics of name-calling -
Alexlacs, That’s all you and the people here know how to do, is call people they disagree with names and then complain when if someone calls them a name.
grow up,
hey, heartless say something stupid.
Thanks for nothing Albatroll
Oh, follow me around Bill. I have a comment for everything you’ve had to say.
K “rich.” Felt sympathy b4. Hate the ‘c’ word. And only nil bill can call me albatroll. So unless you are his alterego, lovers in the night, got nothing to say to you, but get more help.
Prise be to Bill.
Give to him a VICTORY.
Thanks Abuttstink!
Give him the evictory. yOU ALWWAYS do!
Pisses me off.
Website shut down.
Devil I forsaw, but you are loopy!!
Hope you like MA
I am GOD
OK Richard, but you know what? For as loopy and stupid as Bill is, you are sometimes completely off your rocker as well.
Did you get banned, Richard, for saying the c word?? Is that why you are posting under rich now?
You and Bill are friends?
Hardly, Richard.
No one is calling you, Richard. Why do you continue to drop your number? Go to eharmony instead. Oh, wait. They are Christian, and anti-gay. You are gay,yes Richard? You did put out comments b4, that might suggest that.
Dale re: you 11/1 6:55pm post
Every religion indoctrinates their children with their rules and regulations. Deviance, questions are frowned upon, at best, punishable in unforgettable ways at worst. Do you think the Christians think they are exempt from this manipulative tactic (she asks sarcastically.)?
Alba,
It is clinically and experimentally proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that myths can be instilled as truths if they if they are told and reinforced at almost any age between five and nine years of age. They set like cement.
That is why religion is so insideous; it depends upon early indoctrination and instilling a mistrust of rationality.
On November 1st, 2007 at 6:55 pm dale Says:
“Christianity, just as much as Islam, teaches children that unquestioned faith is a virtue.”
Indeed…thus making both Christianity and Islam diametrically opposed to any form of Democracy.
“students have every right to establish Bible and Christian clubs in public schools.”
And if students chose, they should also have the right to set up Wiccan, Atheist, Jewish, or any other clubs. Wonder what you’d think of a Satanist’s club. Think the school would try to block it? And many a smart student has challenged the school districts in just this way. If you say no to all groups, then all’s fair. If you say yes to one, you must say yes to all.
Hence the meaning of the word NON-DISCRIMINATORY, or NON-PREFERENTIAL.
Get it?
Tell me, Bill, how many Christian parents organized to shut down gay/lesbian/transgender alliances around the US? Were they all for it?
See, Bill, straight students join the alliances because they think homophobia is absurd, destructive, even.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,39182,00.html?iid=chix-sphere
“John Silber, Chancellor of Boston University, shut down a gay support group at the BU prep school. The program was aimed at understanding homosexuality, preventing harassment of gay teens and helping them cope with their minority status. But Silber said he did not want sex “pounded” into the students. And he said their sexuality is “none of my business. So don’t make it my business by insisting on rubbing my nose in whatever your preference is, because I don’t want to know.”
Good point, John, but that doesn’t mean that your blind eye stops the crimes committed or the discrimination that occurs while “you don’t want to know.”
Montgomery County Sex-Ed Curriculum Cleared for Take-off
Posted on October 30th, 2007 by Pam Ferguson
The long and winding runway that PFOX and its allies have traversed with the Montgomery County School Board at the expense of their taxpayers finally reached a straitaway and green light earlier this month. The controversial curriculum was approved by a Maryland Circuit Court judge on October 10.
PFOX remains unhappy and intends to “keep up the good fight”. While the curriculum addresses sexually transmitted disease and condom use, PFOX insists that specific statistics regarding homosexuality and AIDS be noted, assuming, I suppose this will scare some students into pursuing opposite sex attractions. Continuing with that logic, if you’re going to end up with a sexually transmitted disease, just make sure you get it while practicing straight sex so you’ll go to heaven when you die from it. As always, PFOX persists in their folly of insisting that ex-gay constitutes a third orientation, as if we need another one, and are either hell-bent or heaven-twisted in their demands that it be included as part of the lessons.
Jim Kennedy of TeachtheFacts had this to say regarding the ruling:
“You have to figure, the county-level school board and superintendent approved it, and then it was appealed to the state, and the state school board and state superintendent separately approved it, and then they tried to appeal that, and now the court has said no — they declined to issue a stay,” he said.
“So what is that? About five strikes?”
http://www.exgaywatch.com/
I’d wager that PFOX and their friends are very accepting of after school tolerance clubs for gays and friends of gays, ya think, Bill?
heartless I see you are playing the homophobia card again, the thread topic is “students have every right to establish Bible and Christian clubs in public schools” agree or disagree?
heartless says, See, Bill, straight students join… of course they do, why shouldn’t they???
are you now claiming that straight students or any students should not be have the right to establish clubs in public schools
all I said was,
“students have every right to establish Bible and Christian clubs in public schools.”
Someone is being a little picky.
heartless, “students have every right to establish Bible and Christian clubs in public schools”, if you don’t like it, get over it. he he he
Hey Bill, I never had a problem…unless equal access was denied to other groups. Where do you stand on all the other groups, though?
he he he…moron.
“The Equal Access Act:
Most public secondary schools already have at least one student-led, non-curriculum club - perhaps a chess club, scuba-diving club, or Bible study club. The federal Equal Access Act, (20 U.S.C. §§ 4071-74), requires that such schools must allow the creation of additional clubs, even if the school board or principal disagrees with the group’s purpose. 1 In 1990, the Supreme Court ruled that the Act is constitutional. 2,3 More details are available.
The original intent of the law was to force school districts to allow religious clubs on high school campuses. But its wording protects the right of all religious, political, philosophical, or other groups to organize. The same law that protects an Evangelical Christian Bible club also supports the right of gays/lesbians/bisexuals to form a support group, to hold meetings on the high school campus before or after instruction hours, and to have equal access to the PA system, bulletin boards, newspapers, etc.”
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_psgr1.htm
I say Praise God for The Federal Equal Access Act.
I’m all for equal access.
I support the 4 walls of separation in the first amendment.
“The same law that protects an Evangelical Christian Bible club also supports the right of gays/lesbians/bisexuals to form a support group” PRAISE GOD.
it is being rumored,
The following was written by Ben Stein
and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary. My confession:I am a
Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not
bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up,
bejeweled trees Christmas trees. I don’t feel threatened. I don’t feel
discriminated against. That’s what they are: Christmas trees. It doesn’t
bother me a bit when people say, “Merry Christmas” to me. I don’t think they
are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of
like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this
happy time of year. It doesn’t bother me at all that there is a manger scene
on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu . If people
want a creche, it’s just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred
yards away . I don’t like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don’t
think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think
people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around,
period. I have no idea where the concept came from that America is an
explicitly atheist country. I can’t find it in the Constitution and I don’t
like it being shoved down my throat. Or maybe I can put it another way:
where did the idea come from that we should worship Nick and Jessica and we
aren’t allowed to worship God as we understand Him? I guess that’s a sign
that I’m getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering
where Nick and Jessica came from and where the America we knew went to. In
light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little
different: This is not intended to be a joke; it’s not funny, it’s intended
to get you thinking. Billy Graham’s daughter was interviewed on the Early
Show and Jane Clayson asked her “How could God let something like this
happen?” (regarding Katrina) Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and
insightful response.She said, “I believe God is deeply saddened by this,
just as we are, but for years we’ve been telling God to get out of our
schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And
being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we
expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave
us alone?” In light of recent events…terrorists attack, school shootings,
etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O’Hare (she was murdered, her
body found recently) complained she didn’t want prayer in our schools, and
we said OK.Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school. The
Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor
as yourself. And we said OK.Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn’t spank
our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be
warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock’s son committed
suicide). We said an expert should know what he’s talking about. And we said
OK.Now we’re asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they
don’t know right from wrong, and why it doesn’t bother them to kill
strangers, their classmates, and themselves. Probably, if we think about it
long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to
do with “WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.” Funny how simple it is for people to trash
God and then wonder why the world’s going to hell. Funny how we believe
what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says . Funny how you
can send ‘jokes’ through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you
start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.
Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through
cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and
workplace.Are you laughing? Funny how when you forward this message, you
will not send it to many on your address list because you’re not sure what
they believe, or what they will think of you for sending it. Funny how we
can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks
of us. Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it…
no one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don’t
sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in. My Best
Regards. Honestly and resp ectfully,Ben Stein
Has the missing link been found?
For many people, evolution is more than just a scientific argument about origins: they use it as their philosophy of living, and it impacts every area of their life. Those who want to reject the Creator are always looking for evidence to support their belief system of evolution.
Christians should be aware that every so-called “missing” link between man and ape has been rejected by scientists. Even many evolutionists throw out Neanderthal man and “Lucy” as our ape-like ancestors. But we shouldn’t even have to turn to science to know that these “ape-men” are false. The Bible clearly tells us that God created humans and animals reproducing after their own kind.
What’s the real missing link? It’s humankind’s relationship to the Creator. He made them, and He’s never been missing. We’re made in the image of God and are meant to worship and obey Him.
from AIG
Ummm - I think you, bill, might be just that missing link. Maybe you could submit a DNA sample to the Smithsonian Institute.
I’m not aware that any scientist has said Neanderthals or “Lucy” were not part of our ancestral tree.
I am aware, however, that some scientists think Neanderthals breeded with the concurrently living homo sapiens, and their descendants are among us.
I always thought Leonid Breshnev looked like a Neanderthal.
Ben Stein is confused.
Nobody is trying to inhibit his or anyone else’s worship or faith practice.
What many of us are concerned with is the people who are trying to make their faith beliefs into public law, force the tenets of their beliefs into school science classes, and deny the rights of certain people (gay people) using their faith tenets as the justification.
Don,
Your last post is spot on.
Even the new religious right is beginning to see that the RR has worn out their myopic three prong approach to gaining dominion- Stem cells, gays, and abortion.
I read several articles over the weekend listing some new and younger fundamentalists that are realizing that they must address other issues that are more important, like poverty.
They also see that divorce etc. run at the national average of 50% even in their fundamentalist congregations. It is becoming increasingly obvious that fundamentalist xtianity is failing in society.
The fundies have no effect on their own congregations, let alone allowing them to push their draconian prohibitions onto the populace in general.
The fundies think that if they could make it a law that people could not divorce, that would solve everything. They are a very deluded bunch.
Open letter to Ben Stein
Yeah, right. The fundies would like to see their ancient myths spread through emails like jokes, etc.
The reason that fundamentalist crap doesn’t get passed around in emails, etc is because nobody is buying in to that crock of shit anymore. You cannot see reality.
You are in the Dobson camp and promoting beating your kids. Very sad.
The fundies are fond of saying that when there is bad weather, rumors of wars, etc, that the end is near.
Hey, idiots, there has been been bad weather since the beginning of the universe. Hurricanes etc were happening before modern humans even evolved. Those are red herrings!
If that were true then god must be happy that the fundamentalists are losing favor so he sent no hurricanes into the US this year.
Of course people are reluctant to send fundie horseshit to their email friends. It will show them to be the ignorant cretins that they are.
“I think it started when Madeleine Murray O’Hare (she was murdered, her
body found recently) complained she didn’t want prayer in our schools, and
we said OK” You thought wrong, Benny. It started with the constitution, and if we didn’t have that we would have been in sectarian civil war for the last two hundred years. WTF.
What brand of christianity would you have in the schools? Catholics surely don’t want their kids taught by a baptist minister.
” I have no idea where the concept came from that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can’t find it in the Constitution and I don’t like it being shoved down my throat.”
We are not an explicitely atheist country. We are a secular government in a country in which the residents claim to be 85% christians of all kinds of denominations and sects. Nice try at beating up your stawman.
Hey Benny. If there is no prayer in your public school, then I recommend that you send your kid to church and sunday school.
“Now we’re asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don’t know right from wrong,”
If you raise your kids with the irrational fer that men are innately evil and the devil is out to get them, you will have those problems. I don’t have those problems with my kids. Never did.
The main reason for crime is poverty and you assholes never mention how to eliminate it.
Japan is a non religious country and they have much less crime per capita than we do because they teach their kids the real reasons why society forbids certain acts. Then they educate their kids and make sure they have productive ways to spend their lives.
I am sick of your ilk saying that you can’t raise a kid with a conscience without beating on him and ramming ancient belief systems down his throat. Social scientists of all kinds have shown that to be a bunch of bunk.
Ben, you are playing to an increasingly diminishing audience.
” But, if you discard this thought process, don’t sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in.”
It is you, Benny, that discard the thought process in favor of a mere belief and presupposition that the bible is the inerrent word of some god. It is you that are trapped in an irrational belief system that precludes you from seeing the reality about you.
I hope you make lots of money on your film since that is what you are about and nothing more.
Hey Benny,
I forgot to ask you something.
You start out your crazed rant by saying:
” My confession: I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not
bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees Christmas trees.”
OK. It doesn’t bother you, you merely ignore it because you do not believe in it. Fine by me. If it’s on private property that is fine.
Then you go on to say, “Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.”
WTF? You are a JEW! You do not even think the new testament exists! You don’t even have a dog in this hunt, so to speak. So what the hell are you even talking about?
Benny is telling you fundies you should believe what the bible says, just not the new testament. !!!!!!!
Ben Stein says, “I have no idea where the concept came from that America is an
explicitly atheist country…” Well, the reason he has no idea where said concept comes from is because said concept doesn’t exist. I have NEVER read anyone, anywhere, state that America is an explicitly atheist country. This is typical of Stein, Denesh and all the other pseudo-intellectual religion apologists who make false statements and then proceed to argue against the made-up statement. Hogwash.
I won’t even waste more than this sentence to say the Stein quoting Billy Graham’s daughter (especially THAT quote) proves that he has completely lost touch with reality.
CT,
You said, “This is typical of Stein, Denesh and all the other pseudo-intellectual religion apologists who make false statements and then proceed to argue against the made-up statement. Hogwash.”
Straw man arguments. Stein executes these very well. Somehow people of his ilk do not think they are being sidhonest by doing that, when they are the most devious of all. He only fools the most deluded though. It is easy to see them coming. Great observation.
thanks, dale. Notice the dyslexic “sidhonest” instead of dishonest in your last post. I have noticed that I have been doing the same thing lately. At lot more than usual and I noticed it in your posts too. Not misspellings so much as letter reversals. What do you think that is? I caught myself reversing letters almost a dozen times while typing this paragraph. What if it’s some kind of syndrome one gets from reading fundie gooblygook?
CT,
You have accurtely pointed out intricencies of posting off the cuff blogspeak.
It happens when:
You are in a hurry
You are not worried about spelling because you take it for granted that those maggots will get your meaning.
But they don’t
Then they persecute you, in your own home.
They were not invited, yet here they come, the bastards,
of society.
OK.
You all know I am eminating the spirit of richard Kosbey,…right? OK just in case, you know…
There is only one little thing that remains to us that know each other. And that thing is ..”style.”
I love the style of writing that I have found here on the “D”. Wayyyy kewl.
Owda site!
ARE YOU CHRISTIPHOBIC?
____ Do you think that most Christians are less learned or enlightened?
Most Christians are simple, hard working people who are terrified of the world in which they find themselves and therefore, find solace in a myth that promises an afterlife of streets paved in gold and all their loved ones frolicking around with lions and lambs. Do I think that you, Bill, who claims to be a Christian, but acts like a hypocrite, to be less learned or enlightened? The answer is unequivocally - YES.
CT is CHRISTIPHOBIC.
No, bill - I am just sick of you…nothing more and nothing less. You are a waste of time and space.
All because of Calvary, folks, all because of Calvary.
Isn’t there a midnight mass you could go to, bill?
I bet Jesus is rolling in his grave over bill’s lunatic rantings.
remember, the Bible is NOT, in fact, illegal in public schools. trumpet that.
However - it IS illegal to TEACH it as a scientific explanation of how the earth was formed. It may be mentioned in context of the many mythologies that people have been led to and/or chosen to belief in over the centuries due to the superstitious nature of many human beings.
And the Bible is still legal in our public schools.
I like to go to the local bookstores and those books that I find on ID and YEC in the science section I move to the science fiction or the religion section. hehehe. Just my small part in keeping the record straight.
Actully CT the bible can be used to teach culture, history, poety.
“Actully CT the bible can be used to teach culture, history, poety.”
I suppose one might say that, although it would be a very narrow view of any of those three, and the history is much more well addressed by modern historical scholars, anthropologists, and archaeologists and materials extent the bible.
You are speaking of one book full of contradictions, inconsistencies and absurdities when there are hundreds of thousands of scholarly history books out there.
Of course, in college level courses in comparative religion, the bible holds an important place in the study of all the ancient books of myths.
jerry, see how the double standard works, its history if it claims Christ was guy but a myth if it is positive.
sad that.
Wrong again, bill….”history if it claims Christ was a guy….” — maybe — but (and here’s where you go wrong) “a myth if it is positive” — NOPE….a myth if it claims Jesus was God — myth if it claims Jesus will return someday riding in the clouds like a celestial surfer swooping in to gather his faithful flock — myth if it claims that accepting him as some kind of personal saviour will save you from some eternal fire and brimstone………should I stop here — or are you just a glutton for punishment???
No double standard at all — just keepin’ it real, bro -
The Christian religion should NOT be taught in the public schools, HOWEVER, America is NOT a religion free zone. Public school children are allowed to carry Bibles in school, they are allow to read in Bible in school, they are allowed to EXPRESS personal faith in school, they are allowed to do ‘Christian’ book reports in school.
YOU and Defcon cannot stop Students from bring Christians just because they are at a public school./
Never
Nobody gives a fying fu*k if a kid brings a Bible to school any more than they would if a kid brings a copy of Harry Potter to school. One can only guess why bill insists on implying that anyone at Defcon would have a problem with a kid bringing a Bible to school. Bill is being completely disingenuous when he implies that DefCon wants to stop students from being Christians. I wouldn’t care if a kid had the 10 Commandments tattooed on his forehead — actually, I could care less what religion anyone choses to believe in or not……..
what I, and most of the contributors to DefCon will never condone nor accept, is a public
school board that endorses the teaching of Genesis and/or creationism in a science class, a public school teacher that tells students that Christianity is the only true religion, a public school that allows a student to read Bible verses over the school P.A. system, or a public school that requires students to recite any prayers (including the words “under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance).
http://www.charleston.net/news/2007/jun/07/legislature_backs_bible_public_schools/
Legislature backs Bible in public schools
By Yvonne Wenger (Contact)
The Post and Courier
Thursday, June 7, 2007
Columbia — The state Legislature on Wednesday cleared the path for the Bible to be taught in public schools…
…the Bible-based curriculum will give students a lesson in history and literature.
The government of the USA DOES NOTHAVE the responsibility to interject religion into the educational process.
The government of the USA DOES NOT HAVE the responsibility OF KICKING religion OUT of the educational process either.
Religious diversity is an important part of American culture.
New surveys make the case for public school Bible classes By: RICHARD N. OSTLING - Associated Press
Can you identify the following?
“In the beginning.”
“Let there be light.”
“The promised land.”
“Eye for an eye.”
“A time to be born and a time to die.”
“Root of all evil.”
“Cast the first stone.”
“Love thy neighbor.”
“Do unto others.”
“Render unto Caesar.”
These notable Bible phrases were among 72 items that every student needs to know, as chosen by 41 high school English teachers. The panel also listed events (e.g., crossing the Red Sea, the Last Supper), people (Goliath, Solomon), places (Sodom, Babel), concepts (original sin) and festivals (Passover). The teachers said biblical knowledge gives students a distinct academic advantage in understanding literature, a point others have made regarding history.
North County Times / May 11, 2005
Landmark new Bible textbook hailed by scholars, leaders, and the media
for use in public high school English and Social Studies electives… used along with the Bible.
“One of 2005’s notable books on religion.” Upon book release.
Associated Press
“Bible textbook could circumvent culture war.”
Knight-Ridder newspapers
“Appealing and educationally rigorous. Teaching the Bible in public schools just got easier.”
WORLD magazine
“A very good curriculum indeed… No small achievement.”
Christianity Today
“A remarkable textbook.”
New York State School Board Association’s On Board magazine
http://www.bibleliteracy.org/Site/index.htm
and its all legal.
In second year of availability, The Bible and Its Influence is taught in 163 schools in 35 states.
As the Chicago Tribune wrote in one editorial, “When [public schools] decline to impart knowledge about such an important subject [the Bible], they are not doing anything to preserve the separation of church and state. They are merely failing their students.”
http://www.bibleliteracy.org/site/index2.htm
What Scholars and Leaders Are Saying About
The Bible and Its Influence
“[The Bible and Its Influence] is an undisputed triumph of scholarship and presentation. The achievement is breathtaking….Your [Hebrew Scriptures] unit raised the bar very high, and I was a priori a little skeptical about whether you could make the [New Testament] genuinely literary in nature. I actually ended up liking the NT unit better than the OT one. … If virtue is its own reward, so is excellence. The material is excellent.”
Leland Ryken, Ph.D., the Clyde S. Kilby Professor of English at Wheaton College, IL
“In The Bible and its Influence, the Bible Literacy Project has produced an outstanding textbook that will both encourage literacy and open students’ minds to the significant role the Bible has played in shaping our modern civilization. With excellent scholarship, it provides a broad-based curriculum that explores the history, culture and content of the entire Bible and de