Creation Museum: The Sequel?
According to Pacific Magazine, Answers in Genesis, the group behind the first Creation Museum, plans on building another museum on the island of Saipan, which is capital the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands:
A U.S.-based Christian ministry group wants to build a museum promoting a creationist museum on Saipan, and it has the backing of Northern Marianas Gov. Benigno Fitial, the Saipan Tribune reports.
Answers in Genesis Group President Ken Ham met with Fitial to discuss the project. Answers in Genesis built a $27 million Creation Museum in Kentucky, which opened in May. It wants to develop a similar facility on Saipan, which it says will be a major tourist attraction.
“Religion, education, and commerce and tourism — these are the elements that the AiG Group proposes to bring to the CNMI by establishing a base of operations here,” administration spokesman Charles P. Reyes, Jr. told the newspaper.
dale, wrong again.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/634155,CST-NWS-create04.article
thanks for reminding me to look this up.
Creation Museum an almighty hit
November 4, 2007
BY CHRIS KENNING
Each day near Petersburg, Ky., 1,500 to 4,000 visitors, including busloads from Christian schools and churches, stand in line for as long as an hour to wander 60,000 square feet of animatronic exhibits presenting the Bible’s creation story as fact.
It has been six months since the Creation Museum opened to crowds and protests, and the controversial attraction has proved more popular than even organizers had predicted.
Halfway into its first year, it is on the verge of surpassing its projected yearlong attendance goal of 250,000. Officials now expect nearly 400,000 people to pass through by year’s end.
‘’It’s been a surprise,'’ said spokeswoman Melany Ethridge.
At least 10,000 have paid for year-round access.
Friday, November 2, 2007
Creation creates a buzz
Museum turnout beats expectations
By Chris Kenning ckenning@courier-journal.com The Courier-Journal
Each day near Petersburg, Ky., 1,500 to 4,000 visitors, including busloads from Christian schools and churches, stand in line for as long as an hour to wander 60,000 square feet of animatronic exhibits presenting the Bible’s creation story as fact.
It’s been six months since the Creation Museum opened to crowds and protests, and the controversial attraction has proven more popular than even organizers had predicted.
Halfway into its first year, it is on the verge of surpassing its projected yearlong attendance goal of 250,000. Officials now expect nearly 400,000 people to pass through the doors by year’s end.
“It’s been a surprise,” said spokeswoman Melany Ethridge, who attributed it to the dramatic exhibits and ongoing media interest from Europe and elsewhere.
At least 10,000 people have paid for year-round access. In the past week alone, it has attracted visitors from France, Brazil, Japan and Hong Kong. The museum did not have a demographic breakdown of visitors, and still relies partly on donations.
Ted Schulz of Louisville has visited twice, recently accompanying his three children as part of a field trip with the small New Song Christian School. He also is on a museum board.
“A lot of people think the Bible is full of myths,” he said. “This shows how the creation account is true.”
But critic Lawrence Krauss…
“I’m surprised that many people have visited, but they got a lot of publicity,” he said, arguing that supporters likely are encouraging visits to see it succeed.
The $27 million facility drew worldwide attention for its claims that the Earth is 6,000 years old, not billions; that dinosaurs and man coexisted; and that geologic features such as the Grand Canyon and fossils were created in a global flood provoked by Adam’s and Eve’s original sin.
SOME SAY, All of that runs counter to accepted and established scientific theory.
Although there are a few smaller creation museums nationwide, none rival Kentucky’s in scope and high-tech design, whose architects also created the Jaws attraction at Universal Studios in Florida.
It has a 200-seat special-effects theater that simulates wind and rain and features two angelic characters who declare, “God loves science!” Dioramas allow children to frolic with dinosaurs.
Depictions of Adam and Eve’s removal from the Garden of Eden are followed by animatronic men hammering on a wooden reproduction of Noah’s ark, which the museum contends also held dinosaurs and 125,280 “sheep-sized animals.” Scenes of violence and turpitude illustrate man’s fall.
When the evangelical group Answers in Genesis opened the facility in late May, scientists howled, calling it a biblical theme-park masquerading as a natural history museum. They worried it would mislead people by suggesting science supported creationism.
Although founder Ken Ham has said he hoped it would change views about evolution, “most of these people probably already believed it,” said Krauss, who argues that the turnout may reflect an effort by believers to show support for its concept of “young Earth creationism.”
Unlike “intelligent design,” which purports that the universe was created by a “designer” but still accepts that it is billions of years old, young-Earth creationists believe the Bible’s book of Genesis is exactly how the world was formed — in six 24-hour days.
Fossils, the museum contends, were formed in the aftermath of a great flood thanks in part to “unique chemical conditions.” Exhibits rebut the evidence of evolution such as Lucy, the Ethiopian hominid whose 3.2-million-year-old remains are a link between apes and humans.
Polls show that many Americans already agree with some of the museum’s claims. A 2006 CBS poll found that 51 percent of Americans think God created humans in their present form. Just 15 percent said that humans evolved and God was not involved.
The museum holds lectures with titles such as “The Age of the Earth — Does it Really Matter?” and “Lucy — She’s no Lady!” which tries to debunk “evolutionary propaganda.”
The attraction’s claims recently led a group of naturalists from Kentucky state parks to plan to go see it firsthand to better understand exhibits that were being increasingly cited by visitors to state parks.
Reporter Chris Kenning can be reached at (502) 582-4697.
edited from, http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?Date=20071102&Category=NEWS01&ArtNo=711020420&SectionCat=&Template=printart
USA Today,
http://www.usatoday.com/travel/destinations/2007-11-02-creationmuseum_N.htm?csp=34
Creation Museum surpasses expectations…
What: Creation Museum
Where: 2800 Bullittsburg Church Road, Petersburg, Ky. (Exit 11 off Interstate 275)
Hours: Mondays through Saturdays, 10 a.m.-6 p.m. Closed Thanksgiving, Christmas Eve, Christmas, New Year’s Eve, New Year’s Day.
Admission: Ages 13-59: $19.95; 60 and older: $14.95; children ages 5-12: $9.95; children younger than 5: free.
Here we go — re: Ken Swine taking his circus side-show on the road to the Marianas out there in the middle of the Pacific…….
[Jack] Abramoff and his law firm were paid at least $6.7 million by the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands (CNMI) from 1995 to 2001, which allows them to manufacture goods with the “Made in the USA” label but they are not subject to U.S. labor and minimum wage laws. After Abramoff paid for Tom Delay and his staffers to go on trips to the CNMI, they crafted policy that extended exemptions from federal immigration and labor laws to the islands’ industries. Abramoff also negotiated for a $1.2 million no-bid contract from the Marianas for ‘promoting ethics in government’ to be awarded to David Lapin, brother of Daniel Lapin. Abramoff also secretly funded a trip for James E. Clyburn (D-SC) and Bennie Thompson (D-MS).
Documentation also indicates that Abramoff’s lobbying team helped prepare Rep. Ralph Hall’s (R-TX) statements on the house floor in which he attacked the credibility of escaped teenaged sex worker “Katrina,” in an attempt to discredit her testimony regarding the state of the sex slave industry on the island.[15] Ms. magazine also explored Abramoff’s dealings in the CNMI and the plight of garment workers like Katrina in their spring 2006 article “Paradise Lost: Greed, Sex Slavery, Forced Abortions and Right-Wing Moralists.”
Later lobbying efforts involved mailings from a Ralph Reed marketing company to Christian conservative voters and bribery of Roger Stillwell, a Department of the Interior official who in 2006 pleaded guilty to accepting gifts from Abramoff.
Source: Wiki P
Expelled – Ben Stein
Why is Big Science suppressing the evidence of Intelligent Design?
www.expelledthemovie.com
Your View — Museum right to make case for Christianity
The Free Press
As soon as I read Pastor Paul Nolting’s defense of a Creation Museum in Petersburg, Ky., I knew what would soon follow.
http://www.mankatofreepress.com/letters/local_story_300190116.html
Creation Museum Surpasses Year-Long Attendance Goal in Less Than 6 Months
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20071105/29958_Creation_Museum_Surpasses_Year-Long_Attendance_Goal_in_Less_Than_6_Months.htm
great quote,
“Despite all the controversy, Ham has expressed his gratitude to both supporters and protestors for all the publicity – positive and negative.”
Despite bill’s pitiful attempt to take this thread off-track….
In response to the title of this thread - Creation Museum: The Sequel?” …..I repeat:
[Jack] Abramoff and his law firm were paid at least $6.7 million by the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands (CNMI) from 1995 to 2001, which allows them to manufacture goods with the “Made in the USA” label but they are not subject to U.S. labor and minimum wage laws. After Abramoff paid for Tom Delay and his staffers to go on trips to the CNMI, they crafted policy that extended exemptions from federal immigration and labor laws to the islands’ industries. Abramoff also negotiated for a $1.2 million no-bid contract from the Marianas for ‘promoting ethics in government’ to be awarded to David Lapin, brother of Daniel Lapin. Abramoff also secretly funded a trip for James E. Clyburn (D-SC) and Bennie Thompson (D-MS).
Documentation also indicates that Abramoff’s lobbying team helped prepare Rep. Ralph Hall’s (R-TX) statements on the house floor in which he attacked the credibility of escaped teenaged sex worker “Katrina,” in an attempt to discredit her testimony regarding the state of the sex slave industry on the island.[15] Ms. magazine also explored Abramoff’s dealings in the CNMI and the plight of garment workers like Katrina in their spring 2006 article “Paradise Lost: Greed, Sex Slavery, Forced Abortions and Right-Wing Moralists.”
Later lobbying efforts involved mailings from a Ralph Reed marketing company to Christian conservative voters and bribery of Roger Stillwell, a Department of the Interior official who in 2006 pleaded guilty to accepting gifts from Abramoff.
Source: Wiki P
Not only is Ken Ham swine, he now what’s to become an exploiter of cheap labor to build and run his crapseum in the middle of nowhere out in the Pacific.
Something smells mighty fishy here. The fifteen islands of the marianas have only about 70,000 people so it is gonna take a lot of YEC vacationers to have many visitors.
The Marianas are located at about 15 degrees north Lat- just above the equator and are one of the most beautiful places on earth and would be a great place for Ken Ham’s new vacation home.
It will be interesting if his supporters (Creabots) are going to like this idea.
That jerk Ham, how dare he help build the tourist trade and help the islands of the marianas people be self reliant.
I know that if my PREACHER wanted to build a MUSEUM on a beatiful secluded island in the best location on the face of the earth, I would be examining the VERACITY of his motives.
To Ken Ham,
I take back everything I said about ya.
I wanna git saved.
I would like to apply for a job at your nice new museum in the Marianas. Deal?
from AIG
INTERESTING ARCHAEOLOGY ITEM
I thought you would be interested in this report about archaeologists stating that they have found the quarry used by King Herod to build the second Temple. You can read this article at: dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/09/24/herod_arc.html
Mr.Ham, dale is a lair and not to be trusted don’t hire him. he he he
dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/09/24/herod_arc.html
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/09/24/herod_arc.html
It just keeps getting better and better.
Ancient Tablet Vouches for Biblical King
Jennifer Viegas, Discovery News
Submit to:
Aug. 16, 2007 — Non-biblical evidence for individuals named in the Bible is rare, particularly for people who were not royals. But an ancient Babylonian tablet provides further proof that a king and his servant — both named in the Book of Jeremiah — existed in the 6th century B.C.
According to an announcement by Assyriologist Michael Jursa and the British Museum, the small clay tablet from the museum’s collections bears the name of Babylonian officer Nebo-Sarsekim. In chapter 39 of the Book of Jeremiah, this individual is described as being with King Nebuchadnezzar II at the siege of Jerusalem in the year 587 B.C.
Jursa, a visiting associate professor from the University of Vienna, discovered the find while analyzing the tablet’s cuneiform script, which was produced by pressing a wedge-shaped instrument — probably a cut reed — into moist clay. The tablet turns out to be a 595 B.C. bill of receipt acknowledging Nebo-Sarsekim’s payment of over 1.6 pounds of gold to a Babylonian temple.
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/08/16/tablet_his.html?category=history
Jursa said that “finding something like this tablet, where we see a person mentioned in the Bible making an everyday payment to the temple in Babylon and quoting the exact date is quite extraordinary.”
Both Nebo-Sarsekim and Nebuchadnezzar were players in key historical events with repercussions still felt today. Prior to the 587 Jerusalem siege, the Babylonians had allied themselves with Iranian warriors.
After Nebuchadnezzar’s 604 B.C. coronation, he campaigned in Syria for five months. In 601 B.C., he and his troops marched to the Egyptian frontier, where the Babylonians and Egyptians battled for many years.
Verified by a Transaction
This small clay tablet from the British Museum’s collection records a payment by a Babylonian officer named Nebo-Sarsekim. Nebo-Sarsekim is described on the tablet as being Nebuchadnezzar’s “chief eunuch.” In chapter 39 of the Book of Jeremiah, this individual is described as being with King Nebuchadnezzar II at the siege of Jerusalem in the year 587 B.C.
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/08/16/tablet_his_zoom0.html?category=history&guid=20070816151500
“Halfway into its first year, it is on the verge of surpassing its projected yearlong attendance goal of 250,000. Officials now expect nearly 400,000 people to pass through by year’s end.”
- Chicago Sun Times, November 4, 2007
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.
Oh I’m getting a good laugh today.
New Headline thread.
GREAT YEAR FOR CREATIONIST. Now that’s funny.
I have a meeting; try to entertain yourselves.
The archaelogical references are very interesting but prove nothing about god. It is not surprising that some of the references in the bible would be historical. We have seen these happen in the past. But, as the article states, these are exceedingly rare and there are vastly more archaelogical discoveries disproving biblical events then there are showing the veracity of the stories, including the book of Exodus has been shown to be utterly false.
“According to the progressive think tank American Progress Action Fund, “Human ‘brokers’ bring thousands there to work as sex slaves and in cramped sweatshop garment factories where clothes (complete with ‘Made in U.S.A.’ tag) have been produced for all the major brands.” Wiki
Gee, I think I’ll head over to the Marianas to buy some cheap clothes and take advantage of the thriving sex slave trade, but what do I tell my wife…..let’s see……
Saipan is predominently Catholic. He won’t exactly be preaching to the choir.
bill’s meeting with the squirrels. They think he’s nuts.
Off topic, but we have a lot of fun to look forward to!
“November 6th 2007
There’s nothing like being an obnoxious prig for the holidays.
Your kids are queasy from eating too much candy, there’s a decomposing jack o’lantern on your front stoop and the trees in your back yard are rapidly shedding leaves. Sounds like the time is right for another “War on Christmas” brought to you by the Religious Right!
That’s right. These days, the Religious Right doesn’t even have the decency to wait until Thanksgiving to start whining about what terms people use to describe as the December holidays.” Americans United
Why does the phrase “sticks up their asses” pop into my head…..
http://blog.au.org/
“Recently, the Akron, Ohio City Council decided to drop its long-time practice of reciting the Lord’s prayer to open its public meetings. The action came after Americans United for Separation of Church and State warned city officials that sponsoring a Christian invocation runs afoul of the U.S. Constitution and sends a message to non-Christians that they are outsiders in their own community.
Americans United’s letter cited federal court precedent that prohibits legislative bodies from advancing the prayers of “one particular religion.” Since the U.S. Supreme Court’s 1983 Marsh v. Chambers case, numerous other federal courts have invalidated sectarian prayer employed by government entities.” AU
Americans United has been doing a great job.
Aug 1945 ..the Enola Gay leaves Tinian, an Isalnd in the Northern Marianas, carrying the then zenith of American scientific evolution and attempts to bomb Japan back to the stone age.
Nov 2005 an American entity announces plans to develop a project in the Northern Marianas in utter disregard of ACTUAL SCIENCE in an attempt to return the world to stone age superstitions.
make that “Nov 2007…”
I had a brain fart and lost 2 years momentarily!
Good one, Yahweh. And Ham shows up with that Neanderthal-like countenance. They probably thought he would come off the airplane with a dinosaur on a leash!
“GREAT YEAR FOR CREATIONIST. Now that’s funny.”
It is funny. The year that the influence of fundamentalists powers are greatly diminished since they failed miserably in their political aspirations. The really funny part is that if they formed their own political party (Perhaps Dobson’s Fundamentalist Freedom Party) they would be lucky to get a thousand votes.
It will be very interesting indeed if Dobson does decide to field a candidate, but he knows better. He would then be the pariah of the republican party for the rest of his life. Dobson is doing the slow burn right now. He’s no longer the center of attention.
It IS a great year for creationists!
Bill from Defcon, thanks for the update on the Aig Creation Museum.
Is there evidence that Jesus was actually gay??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReYfDlIa-Z8
If so, the new diaramas need to incorporate the lifesyle with gay men living with dinosaurs. However that would not be much different than today–if you consider the church as a dinosaur that long surpassed its usefulness to harness and tread upon our souls.
November 6th, 2007 at 12:34 pm
Bill_from_defcon Says:
Aug. 16, 2007 — Non-biblical evidence for individuals named in the Bible is rare, particularly for people who were not royals.
________
And when such evidence IS found, it only makes the argument that the Bible is a quasi-history book more credible. The fact that they found evidence that Nebo-Sarsekim really existed doesn’t make the God of Abraham any more real than those who believe the mythology already believe it to be; and we already know that just believing something to be true, doesn’t make it true.
I just read an article in my local paper about the “healing” that is going on in Ted Haggard’s old church.
The article stated a couple observations that I hadn’t heard of.
Apparently, Rev Ted, the TEDmeister, the stud-O, had a statue of a male angel in the back of the church who was all buffed out. A bigger than life statue of a male angel with those throbbing musculat legs, thighs and a six pack going on. Yikes!
Now, in retrospect, the congregation figured out that this statue was full of “Homoerotic” suggestions complete with the bulging fig leaf. ! Ted had a sign above it. The sign said,”The Protector.”
The statue has been removed and replaced with a simple woodie, errr i mean a simple wooden cross.
That congregation recieves my most gullible bunch of the year award.
While I am at it, I am going to extend my “Most Gullible Bunch of the Year” award to include every person in this country who sits in a church on Sunday (The Sun God’s Day) and believes that the person up there talking to them is some kid of direct connection to some god.
The number of people in this country that actually believe what thos ministers are saying is profoundly ower than what the polls reveal. That is my opinion based on my personal experiences.
Not me man!!! You are propsing shooting me in as bb in a box car. Too much fooking latitude. I need more guidance than that. Me, suffer alone or better that with the rest of huminty.
Fook you Dale!!! I would rather die in ignance! It iws easier to say ALL MIGHTY GAWD will accept my soul even though I fooked my neice.
Gawd gave me the right to commit such a henous crime and the ability to forgive me from here after.
“Common in brothers the water is fine!!!!”
Dale, when are you going to capitulate to the Lawd!!!!! If you do before me–not at at all possible!!!!!
Keep kick those closet “humans”. One day they will see it is them and no one else. No Jesus. no 70 virgins or your cousin.
It will be you in the world of infinite possibility.
Now that is a terrifying thought……………………………………
Whoa!! My spelling is fooked up after a couple of drinks. Bring it on Bill!! We may be equal at last_______________NOT.
Dale, if you decifer my meaning ( while possesed by the devil, than you are on course. Me? at this moment, I am looking for a good pagan. No judgement-no sex, just a good meeting.
Wax,
Relax. Deep breaths……
Read the thread below.
did you miss me??? LOL
November 7th, 2007 at 12:54 am
Bill_from_defcon Says:
did you miss me??? LOL
Like a chancre!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CT,
When I read your article about the Finance Committee investigating the TV evangilists I was shocked to learn that because they are churches, they do not have to submit a 990 form to the IRS like other non-profits. I had wondered for years how the churches got away with that sloppy accounting.
Allowing them to not submit a 990 is an invitation for abuse. Without that, they don’t have to break out how the money is spent.
CT,
Not to argue for the scumbags, but if they are not required to file a 990, is it even legal for the Fin Committee to request the records?
This is a loophole that needs closed. It only makes sense that non-profit, by definition should be more transparent. Any body that doesn’t have to pay taxes should be scuitinized.
November 6th, 2007 at 5:40 pm
waxxer Says:
Is there evidence that Jesus was actually…
I see waxxer is admitting Jesus is a true historical person.
Bill. thanks for the Museum update.
hello, and you are welcome.
Jerry G Per November 7th, 2007 at 2:55 pm:
Jerry G you will find that most of the people who post here, like waxhead, have a double standard when it comes to Christ. They are always more then happy to admit His existence If it suits their purpose.
Anyone see that Robertson has backed Rudy G. as president?
As for all these numbers on the creationist museum…they remind me of Fox viewship numbers, and those viewers rates of being misinformed.
JW,
Hadn’t seen that yet.
Do you think Dobson will cave in and endorse one of the main candidates?
What difference would it make; Hillary is going to be the next President.
November 7th, 2007 at 3:48 pm
…and growing, and growing.
JW, you cannot do anything to stop the Museum from growing. ha ha ha
No, Dobson is on record stating his views and ideals are not flexible. While I hate the man’s views, and think they are disgusting in their direct conflict with freedom, he has some integrity, at least.
Robertson is just a damn Republican stooge. Hes a partisan hack, and his religious views are secondary, obviously. People like him are of the opinion that ANY Republican will do. They would elect GW yet again if they could, and that requires rabid stupidity.
Bill,
Sure hope so. Best thing that could happen to this country.
“JW, you cannot do anything to stop the Museum from growing. ha ha ha ”
Wouldnt want to. Just like Fox, people are free to be as misinformed as they like.
wishful thinking won’t help. Prayer won’t help either. Ken Ham is basically irrelevent to 90% of the people of this country, and that figure is decreasing.
As long as it remains unconstitutional for the bill’s to teach their lies in the public schools, we’ll be fine.
JW,
Spot on. Most fundies are downright proud of their ignorance.
dale - if in fact, the Fin Comm doesn’t have the authority to act against the six Xtian telegrubbies, I’m sure their well-paid (with tax-deductible “love gift”) lawyers will make that case.
Nevertheless — If bill & co. REALLY believe in the Biblical “Satan” — they’d best start re-examining the words and actions of the Benny Hinns, Pat Robertsons and Rev. Moons of the world, and stop defending liars and thieves.
You want respect for Christianity??? CLEAN YOUR HOUSE !!
JERRY FALWELL: The ACLU’s got to take a lot of blame for this.
PAT ROBERTSON: Well, yes.
JERRY FALWELL: And, I know that I’ll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way-all of them who have tried to secularize America - I point the finger in their face and say “you helped this happen.
PAT ROBERTSON: I totally concur. The problem is that we’ve adopted that agenda at the highest levels of our government. We’re responsible as a free society for what the top people do and the top people are the court system.
What “This” are Pat and Jerry accusing non-whacko religous type Americans for? 9/11 of course.
Clean their house indeed, though it looks as if God himself has rid us of at least one of these roaches.
…and in less then 24 hours
He was Apologetic,
He expressed regret and remorse,
He repented for crying out loud.
He said he WAS WRONG for saying it, because it was not true.
November 7th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
dale Says:
As long as it remains unconstitutional for the bill’s to teach their lies in the public schools, we’ll be fine.
Bill does not want to teach religion in the public schools.
I dare you to produce a post in which i call for religion to be taught in public schools.
“He repented for crying out loud”
Why did he do it again…over and over and over and over….
And I bet you don’t give Bill Clinton the same credit, though he hasnt repeated the behavior after repenting.
Being a Christian only counts in the Wingnut’s views if there is an (R) after your name, or you constantly preach against gays.
THIS JUST IN ——>
Former Mayor Rudy Giuliani’s presidential campaign received a major boost today as Christian Coalition founder and prominent Evangelical Reverend Pat Robertson endorsed him in the Republican primary. Giuliani, the leader in national polls in the Republican primary, has been seeking to court religious conservative voters wary of his more liberal stands on social issues. This endorsement is sure to get him a second look from Evangelicals, if not win him some new voters.
____________________
I’d say it’s not a major boost, but rather - the kiss of death.
Jay duhu, you ask, Why did he do it again…over and over and over and over….?
HE DIDN’T, HE SAID IT ONCE AND ONLY ONCE, its loudmouths like you that kept it alive; meaning that even in death Dr. Falwell is still a beacon of light that still upsets the likes of you. L@L
Even in death, Fartwell is an asshole.
There was am earthquake a few days ago, the epicenter determined to be in Virginia. After analysis, geologists reported that the cause of the quake was one of the flabby jowels of Falwell’s fat carcass settling.
Falwell recanted his apology. In the interview with Ammanpour, shortly before he pointed his fat ass to the sky, he told her he stood by his earlier statements.
Falwell was a crock of shit.
About the creation amusement park in Kentucky…
“The museum did not have a demographic breakdown of visitors”.
Well…I do. They’re all nuts.
You’re right, Dale. Dobson is fuming about his increasing irrelavancy. And he is fuming even more now that Pat Robertson has trumped him and made the mainstream news headlines by endorsing Giuliani.
We are now going to witness the grisly spectacle of a power struggle between Dobson and Robertson.
And that is what the Robertsons and Dobsons of the Religious Whacko Reich are all about…power.
They have nothing in common with true Christianity.
Dale, do you think “pastor” Ted’s old church would sell me that statue?
The discovery of archaeological materials that can be traced to biblical names is interesting from a historical point of view.
But it is meaningless from a hysterical point of view.
“Halfway into (the Creation Museum’s) first year, it is on the verge of surpassing its projected yearlong attendance goal of 250,000. Officials now expect nearly 400,000 people to pass through by year’s end.”
Don! I was definitely thinking about you when I read that. I’d bet that statue is looooong gone, never to be seen again!
“HE DIDN’T, HE SAID IT ONCE AND ONLY ONCE, its loudmouths like you that kept it alive; meaning that even in death Dr. Falwell is still a beacon of light that still upsets the likes of you. L@L”
Bill,
Falwell was on record MANY TIMES bashing the ACLU, Gays, and Secularists in general. While he may not have said they were responsible for 9/11 again (though it looks like that is debateable) he did bash them…over and over and over and over…
Just because he didnt make the same accusation again does not mean the man repented. He continued to spew vile hatred at those he considered to be morally lacking. There simply was no “repentance”, and if his version of the bible is correct, the man is buring in hell as we speak.
With the things Jerry said on a regular basis, Im surprised that ANY self proclaimed “Christian” could call the man a “beacon of light”. The man was a “beacon of JUDGEMENT, FEAR, and HATE”. To my knowledge, judgement is reserved for God alone, and the other two, when used to belittle and subjugate others, are sins.
“In May, Answers in Genesis distributed an elaborate press kit, including a “video news release.” Video News Releases are pre-produced news segments, complete with fake reporters, that many cash-strapped local TV stations will air with little or no editing or attribution.” People for the American Way
Leading these young minds into ignorance should be, and eventually will be labeled as child abuse that it is.
One good result of this is that the more fundie kids that are being brainwashed to not believe in science will make it much easier for normal kids to get the good jobs.
Kids that are brainwashed to believe in YEC cannot make it in any science class in any regular college in this country.
It is hard to imagine how many of these young minds will not have the ability to learn and understand science. That is unless they go to a couple of the fundie colleges now available where they can go and continue their conditioning.
This is pitiful.
Unfortunatley Dale, those same people, while uanble to obtain good jobs, will still have the right to vote.
Yes, JW, very sobering thought.
Its also a catch 22. You look at Bill and you say, “Jeez. If this idiot would just learn a thing or two so he could make informed decisions, rather than make decisions based on a 2000 year old ideology and rank ignorance…it would really help!” And of course, if everyone took the vote not only as a right, but as a responsibility (which is certainly is) then we would all be better off.
The flip side is that they dont. They vote stupid, based on ideology rather than real world data. And the result is 7 years of Chimpy in the WH, and 6 years of rubber stamping congress.
So, what do we do? Do we deny them the right to vote? No. As much as I wish Bill wouldnt vote, its a right, and Im not about to be like the Religious Whacko Right; demand my freedom while being ok with theirs being infringed upon. But if we keep letting them vote…more problems!
Catch 22.
The RR got there asses kicked in a couple elections yesterday including the Utah reforendom on vouchers.
“Religious liberty fared well in two referenda across the country yesterday. Voters in Utah easily rejected the first statewide voucher scheme, keeping tax dollars from paying for school children’s religious education. It was a fantastic win for church-state separation.” —- AU
Berkley Michigan residents rejected the display of a manger scene on City property. We heard a lot about this last xmas. The Detroit News reported that CRF succeeded yesterday when the amendment was rejected 55 percent to 45 percent. This is an important win. Score a big point for the logic and reason that has prevailed in these votes.
JW,
There will be resurgencies of fundamentalist religion, as happens in catastrophes, etc. But generally speaking the RR is self destructing due to their desire to gain dominion and push their religious dogma into our government. Americans, regardless of religious affiliation, won’t be pushed around by the RR cult. It just took them a while to see that the RR did indeed have a plan to gain dominion. Moderate christians are now well aware of what those fundie facists are trying to pull off.
Voucher Venom: Utah Voters Feel The Byrne, As Bitter Fat Cat Moves On To South Carolina
November 8th 2007
“For eight months, mega-bucks businessman Patrick Byrne spent millions of dollars and lots of energy trying to convince Utahns that they should support a private school voucher scheme.
And when Utah residents overwhelmingly rejected the so-called “Parents for Choice in Education Act,” Byrne got rankled and blasted Utahns as uncaring dupes. The head of the Internet retail seller Overstock.com also took cheap shots at his own allies.
Byrne, who according to Utah press accounts dumped more than $3 million of his fortune into the pro-voucher push, complained to The Salt Lake Tribune and the Deseret Morning News following the 62 percent to 38 percent smack-down that the state’s residents had failed a “statewide IQ test” and that they don’t care about their children’s education.”
When these fundies don’t get their way they start calling people names- Typical, that.
As bill would write, in his sophmoric and infantile way, ha ha ha ha.
“Americans, regardless of religious affiliation, won’t be pushed around by the RR cult. It just took them a while to see that the RR did indeed have a plan to gain dominion. Moderate christians are now well aware of what those fundie facists are trying to pull off. ”
I would love to believe this. Unfortunately, thats not what I see.
What I do see….
Rudy G. smiling big enough to crack a normal man’s face, while shaking hands with Pat Robertson.
Rudy G. and Mitt Romney, both fiscally conservative, both liberal on civil liberties, changing their stances to conform to the RR insanity.
John McCain, doing the same.
That said, when you look at the Republican contenders for the Presidency, it seems to me that the RR still has political traction in spades.
JW,
I think Robertson is too cartoonish and irrelevent to really make his endorsement for Guilianni hold any water.
We have two big wins that I posted above and here is another smack down of the RR, and the best part is it happened in Kentucky.
Incumbent Republican Ernie Fletcher was soundly defeated by Democrat Steve Beshear even though the RR had Pat Boone Pat Boone making calls telling people that if Democrat Steve Beshear is elected, he’ll turn Kentucky into San Francisco by supporting “every homosexual cause.” But, obviously it didn’t work.
Dale,
Yes, it has swung back some. But again, if you look at the candidates in the Republican party, all three leaders have made some dramatic shifts from their previous policies in order to cater to the RR.
JW,
Yes, and acknowleged, but here is what one RR site, The Covenant News has to say about Robertson:
“Pat Robertson Aborts Brain
Nov 7, 2007
Pat Robertson Endorses Mass Murderer: Old guard “pro-life” founder of the Christian Coalition, the Rev. Pat Robertson, today endorsed radically pro-homosexual child-killer Rudi Giuliani. ”
Yee Hawww. I love watching those fundies ripping each other to pieces. Great sport!
http://www.covenantnews.com/blog/
Thanks to whoever mentioned Falwell is dead. I like those reasurring and warm thoughts.
Kennedy is dead too.
The creabots lose elections and referendums.
They can’t field a candidate for president.
Their #2 player is renounced as a pariah for endorsing Rudy.
Dobson is stewing in the juices of rejection by the republicans.
Repulican RR politicians are being outed as hippocrites on a monthly basis.
Delay- gone- Cunningham- Gone
Their prez turns out to be the worst in history.
Great year for creationists!
Great posts, all.
I want to thank everyone for the words of encouragement and support as I dealt with the impending death of my Dad. He passed at 3:30 a.m. today.
Bill, I have nothing that I will be searching for in his loss. I will, however, miss his company sorely. I am sorry that you search on endlessly for “missing pieces” since the deaths of your parents, but that isn’t how I perceive life and death. What you said makes me think that one would be living on and in in a state of perpetual grief, instead of celebrating the life that was lived.
Sorry, can’t do it your way.
RIP RMR.
Albatross,
With all of my sympathy and condolences I thank you for putting that in perspective.
Best regards, Alba.
Condolences Alba.
Albatross - you have all my compassion for your loss and my condolences are to you and your family.
Thanks all.
Alba,
I emailed ya sumpin…….
Dale, I can’t open that email anymore. Do you still have that address set up, and then I can get you another address?
I tried like hell to access it, but the info is buried deep in some box somewhere…probably never to be found
Alba, I take it that you do not have my email address either?
I dumped that temporary address after everybody had chimed in.
I’m all set. I guess the Alzheimer’s is in remission. I was able to play a bit and got everything working. Checking it now. BRB.
OK - my speakers don’t work. Ah, the joys of moving. Thanks, Dale, for the wishes, and as soon as I get these damn plugs figured out, I’ll be able to listen. You’d think the computer guru would offer his mother some help…it’s always “In a bit, Mom.”
Thanks, again.
Easy does it. You’ve got some trying days ahead, but your great attitude and regard for life will carry you to the next plateau!
per, November 8th, 2007 at 3:10 pm
I understand.
you also have my sympathy and condolences.
Albatross, I’m sorry about your dad. I’m glad he was able to watch…and enjoy…his Red Sox winning the ALC and the World Series.
Yes, Don, he did. I’m glad for it. Thanks, all, for the condolences. Good guy gone.
I’m going to miss, “Did I ever tell you about the time…” followed by a very,very long story, and the out of the corner of the mouth, “What part of F U don’t you understand?” Jehovah’s Witnesses only visited my Dad once.:-).
Tomorrow will be veterans day.
And in honor of them, we capitalize Veteran, we use an apostrophe to show that it is theirs, and finally we capitalize Day, because it is a proper noun.
picky, picky, picky. LOL
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/faq/vetsday/vetshist.htm
1918
World War I, then normally referred to simply as The Great War (no one could imagine any war being greater!), ended with the implementation of an armistice [temporary cessation of hostilities—in this case until the final peace treaty, the infamous Treaty of Versailles, was signed in 1919] between the Allies and Germany at the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of…
The United States Department of Veterans Affairs doesn’t always use the apostrophe for Veterans Day. LOL
But, they do cap it.
Heartless has nothing better to do. silly that.
http://www1.va.gov/opa/vetsday/
Veterans Day is tomorrow!
Actually, nitwit, I didn’t need to expend much energy (as usual) to correct you in your ignorance. No one here does.
Veteran’s Day is every day.
I second that emotion, Alba.
Thanks, C.T. My wedding anniversary is 11/11. Not for any special reason, but this year we wake my Dad. Then on 11/12, the day that the holiday is commemorated, my Dad will have his service and then go in the Veteran’s Memorial Wall.
I do not support this war one iota, but I have tremendous respect for our military, serving now, or having served. One more place the RRR is trying to infiltrate with their garbage. My heart aches for the needless dying.
November 10th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
Bill_from_defcon Says:
http://www1.va.gov/opa/vetsday/
Veterans Day is tomorrow!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
November 10th, 2007 at 6:04 pm
Albatross Says:
Veteran’s Day is every day.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Heartless couldn’t agree with me even if it supported here view.
Heartless, why do you have this need to disagree?
Heartless, why do you have this need to disagree with the truth?
The truth is tomorrow is Veteran’s Day.
Where is there disagreement in my statement, nitwit?
bill - are you a veteran?
Bill, tidbit to expand your brain’s capacity. WWI was also known as the ‘War to end all wars’ because of the great destruction. It’s ending with the Treaty of Versaille laid the groundwork for WWII.
Albatross Says:
Actually, nitwit, I didn’t need to expend much energy (as usual) to correct you in your ignorance. No one here does.
Albatross Says:
Bill, tidbit to expand your brain’s capacity. WWI was also known as the ‘War to end all wars’ because of the great destruction. It’s ending with the Treaty of Versaille laid the groundwork for WWII.
Try the Bill-Cott
bill - I asked - are you a veteran?
ct, i’m ignoring you. hehehe
If God took one of Adam’s ribs, then women must have an extra rib?
http://www.answersingenesis.org/PublicStore/product/Did-Eve-Really-Have-an-Extra-Rib,4514,264.aspx
Creation Museum
2006 IRS Form 990 “Return of Organization Exempt From Income Tax”
http://www.GuideStar.org/FinDocuments/2006/330/596/2006-330596423-03232a37-9.pdf
Check out all those six-figure executive salaries!
Bill - (3rd time) are you a veteran?
I only found 2 people with salaries in the six figures.
Most CEO’s would be making a whold lot more that this.
ct, what part of “i’m ignoring you” do you find hard to understand.
Hamsterhead earns in excess of 120,000 pre-bonus and other extras. That’s a lot more than real scientists earn, forget about “ministers.” And let us not forget the new vacation home he’s about to have in the Marianas. Yep, preaching Genesis is a profitable business.
Televangelist Releases Financial Documents
POSTED: 11:36 am EST November 11, 2007
[NEWSVINE: Televangelist Releases Financial Documents] [DELICIOUS: Televangelist Releases Financial Documents] [DIGG: Televangelist Releases Financial Documents] [FACEBOOK: Televangelist Releases Financial Documents] [REDDIT: Televangelist Releases Financial Documents] [RSS] [PRINT: Televangelist Releases Financial Documents] [EMAIL: Televangelist Releases Financial Documents]
ATLANTA — An Atlanta minister has released his church’s finances in response to a Senate investigation into alleged financial wrongdoing that targets him and five other well-known televangelists.
The Rev. Creflo Dollar’s World Changers Church International took in $69 million in 2006, according to a financial statement released to The Atlanta Journal-Constitution.
Dollar said his salary comes personal investments, including businesses and real estate ventures. But he said the church gave him a Rolls Royce, which he uses largely for special occasions.
“Without a doubt, my life is not average,” he said. “But I’d like to say, just because it is excessive doesn’t necessarily mean it’s wrong.”
http://www.cbs46.com/news/14565577/detail.html
Just because it’s excessive doesn’t mean it’s wrong????? Really??? Yep, using the name of Jesus for financial gain can’t be wrong, right?? What freaking dodo heads. What part of personal relationship do they confuse with create excess and grandeur for those who claim a direct link with Jesus? Absolutely ludicrous.
It’s no coincidence that the mouth foamer’s last name is Dollar.
Elmer Gantry-
Nice work young man….very nice.
It isn’t so much how much they make to me, it’s the fact that they don’t have to file a form 990 like other non-profit organizations. Without the 990, they can do any damn thing they please. That is wrong.
Alba,
It is hidious, this health and wealth preaching. My wife and I sat in total astonishment at Joel Osteen yesterday morning. We were having some breakfast and surfing some channels. There is Joel.
My wife has tried to make a case for the humanist approach from Joel. As of yesterday, that sentiment has ended.
He stood there and adamantly promised every person in that building that god had a special plan for them to excell above non-believers and they could all be wealthy beyong description if only they would…….blah..blah…..
Joel Osteen knows that is a lie. He knows that as well as he knows how much money he is making.
There is no way that what he is saying can be true. No way in the fu*king non-existent hell, snowballs and all.
Those people are of hundreds of types of humans with attendant capabilities and skill sets, along with certain limitations.
If he would have said “rich in spirit,” or “healthy of mind,” I could buy into the psycological advantages of a good attitude (of which each one of us are responsible for are own,) but Noooooooooooo.
He was specific and he was instilling unfounded expectations into the minds of thos good people.
That was very wrong. Ask my wife.
Elmer,
By the way, the rift that happened between the Austrailian and Ham’s organization was over Ham enriching his close cronies at the Aussies expense. That is well documented in the archives here.
They misled magazine subscribers into believing that the Australian magazine had gone belly-up, kept the mailing list, and got them to subscribe to the ‘new’ magazine, of which the Aussie’s received nothing but a reduced subscriber base.
Then when the Aussie’s filed suit after trying unsuccessfully to resolve the matter, they were chastised by Hamsterhead for involving the courts in ‘God’s business dealings’; they were not behaving Christ-like for filing suit.
They have now reached an agreement to reach an agreement out of court.
“Elmer Gantry is a 1927 novel by Sinclair Lewis. It tells the story of a young, narcisistic, womanizing college athlete who, upon realizing the power, prestige, and easy money that being an evangelical preacher can bring, pursues his “religious” ambitions with relish, contributing to the downfall, even death, of key people around him as the years pass. Although he continues to womanize, is often exposed as a fraud, and frequently faces a complete downfall, Gantry is never fully discredited and always manages to emerge triumphant and to reach ever greater heights of social status. The novel ends as the Rev. Gantry prays for the USA to be a “moral nation” and simultaneously admires the legs of a new choir singer.”
“When Fascism Comes to America it will be Wrapped in the Flag and Carrying a Cross” — Sinclair Lewis
Ken Ham is a dirty bastard. Nothing more.
it takes one to know one. LOL
Dale is posting like a troll, I should know.
It takes one to know one?????? OMG - you really are an immature little prick, bill. What’s next? “I know you are but what am I??
Na na na boo boo
Your mama smells like poo poo.
C’mon Bill, spill it. What grade are you in, seriously?
bill craves attention.
And he craves for me.
CT Dale’s comment was the one out of line not bill.
Morgan, I’ll let you be the judge of that. I happen to like Dale and agree with him that Ken Ham is not worthy.
It should go without saying, by this point, that bill’s “contributions” aren’t worth the time it takes to skip them.
Unless, of course, Morgan would be of the mindset that Hamsterhead’s stealing of the mailing list of his Aussie counterparts, and convincing them that the Australian magazine had folded up is an admirable thing, Dale’s comment was completely “in-line.”
Morgan, you haven’t been around long enough to be on the defense for Bill. Sit back and observe, if you like, then speak up. O/wise STFU.
i hope they open one in every country, praise be to God. Why r u so worried about a creation museum anyway. Yous r the ones telling the lies, yous are the ones that are corrupting young childrens minds, you are the ones who need to be shut down and I will pray that it will. DO NOT UNDER ESTIMATE THE POWER OF PRAYER. I pray that you will open your ages and see the truth
Oh oh, what’s this, someone “on the defense for Bill” and ofr course heartless’ reply is “STFU”
So much for free speech. hehehe
free speech may be a right, but that doesn’t stop bill from abusing it.
Back to the issue of Hamsterhead being a d*ckhead for stealing the mailing list of his former counterparts and deceiving subscribers, or would you prefer to skip over that part, nitwit, Bill?
Does Morgan also work for the Hamsterhead?
Good luck with that, matt. My guess would be that you’re a strong supporter of the Constitution, being that you don’t want us to have our right to speak out in opposition to the Fred Flintstone Museum.
Ignorance is glaring in your choice of words ex. yous r the ones…
Dale, please say that’s you playing a joke, again, though I’d be mighty pissed, indeed.
Hi matt.
We don’t give a shit about the Creation amusement park opening. We’re just exercising our free speech rights to tell everyone how stupid it…and people like you…are.
Suck it up, kid.
matt…I pray that you grow up and grow a mind of your own.
PS - my comment to “matt” was sarcasm, in case anyone didn’t know
.
No, Alba. I have no need to do that. There are enough morons around here to take up that nitche.
Matt,
It has been proven time and again that prayer does ot work.
Just ask Sonny Perdue.
I keep praying for bile to disappear - but apparantly, God ain’t hearin’ it. Lucky us.//sarcasm off
chit, why are you copying dale???
sarcasm off?????????
Funny, that.
//sarcasm on bold
ha
ha
Hahaha,
Taking a Break (because we’re broke and broken)
We wanted to let you all know that this will be our last blog post(hahaha), at least for now.(meaning forever) Our funding has run out, (because defcom is out of the mainstream so badly that no one will support this foolishness) so we will be taking a break.( because we’re broke)
We want to make it clear that this is in no way an admission of defeat, (Ok, it really is an admission of defeat,but we are trying to save face.) we’ve had some spectacular successes(for example, aahhh, hmm, I’ll get back to you, later) and it is clear that the religious right is on the run!(and soon they’ll be running the country)
Thanks to all of you especially bill from defcon, we’ve been able to fight the teaching of scientific creationism in public schools, fight for (killing the unborn for spare parts), run national ads (Lying about) Jack Abramaoff’s ties to religious right leaders, and in general smear crap and misrepresent the sincerity of the religious right. We’re going to leave the thread open for a few weeks so that you losers can all make connections. Or get a live they normal people. We never really valued this community, and it’s hopeless for us to reconnect with you sometime in the future. Thank you for all you’ve done to help in the fight to attack our Constitution.
Creation Museum wins, defcon loses hahaha
The fight goes on….Defcon or no Defcon and the biles of the world will eat the shit they spread.
Creation Museum wins, defcon loses hahaha
bile_from_DEFeated CONservatives = LOSER
bill_from_DEFeated CON. hahaha
Psalm 23
A psalm of David.
1 The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.
2 He makes me lie down in green pastures,
he leads me beside quiet waters,
3 he restores my soul.
He guides me in paths of righteousness
for his name’s sake.
4 Even though I walk
through the valley of the shadow of death, [a]
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.
5 You prepare a table before me
in the presence of my enemies.
You anoint my head with oil;
my cup overflows.
6 Surely goodness and love will follow me
all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the house of the LORD
forever.
Your rod and staff comfort me?
Freudian slip?
Proverbs 24
1 Do not envy wicked men,
do not desire their company;
2 for their hearts plot violence,
and their lips talk about making trouble.
3 By wisdom a house is built,
and through understanding it is established;
4 through knowledge its rooms are filled
with rare and beautiful treasures.
5 A wise man has great power,
and a man of knowledge increases strength;
6 for waging war you need guidance,
and for victory many advisers.
7 Wisdom is too high for a fool;
in the assembly at the gate he has nothing to say.
8 He who plots evil
will be known as a schemer.
9 The schemes of folly are sin,
and men detest a mocker.
10 If you falter in times of trouble,
how small is your strength!
11 Rescue those being led away to death;
hold back those staggering toward slaughter.
12 If you say, “But we knew nothing about this,”
does not he who weighs the heart perceive it?
Does not he who guards your life know it?
Will he not repay each person according to what he has done?
13 Eat honey, my son, for it is good;
honey from the comb is sweet to your taste.
14 Know also that wisdom is sweet to your soul;
if you find it, there is a future hope for you,
and your hope will not be cut off.
15 Do not lie in wait like an outlaw against a righteous man’s house,
do not raid his dwelling place;
16 for though a righteous man falls seven times, he rises again,
but the wicked are brought down by calamity.
17 Do not gloat when your enemy falls;
when he stumbles, do not let your heart rejoice,
18 or the LORD will see and disapprove
and turn his wrath away from him.
19 Do not fret because of evil men
or be envious of the wicked,
20 for the evil man has no future hope,
and the lamp of the wicked will be snuffed out.
21 Fear the LORD and the king, my son,
and do not join with the rebellious,
22 for those two will send sudden destruction upon them,
and who knows what calamities they can bring?
Further Sayings of the Wise
23 These also are sayings of the wise:
To show partiality in judging is not good:
24 Whoever says to the guilty, “You are innocent”—
peoples will curse him and nations denounce him.
25 But it will go well with those who convict the guilty,
and rich blessing will come upon them.
26 An honest answer
is like a kiss on the lips.
27 Finish your outdoor work
and get your fields ready;
after that, build your house.
28 Do not testify against your neighbor without cause,
or use your lips to deceive.
29 Do not say, “I’ll do to him as he has done to me;
I’ll pay that man back for what he did.”
30 I went past the field of the sluggard,
past the vineyard of the man who lacks judgment;
31 th