Religious Right Disrupts Congressional Prayer
In what can only be described as the height of intolerance, yesterday three members of the religious right took it upon themselves to disrupt a prayer (leading to their eventual arrest) being given by a Hindu priest in the Senate gallery. Read all about it in The Hill, or watch the video below. Charming.
Actually, Eliza, Tony did post this yesterday, BUT I personally think it would be more “charming” if we got the watch the arrest of the radicals on the right
. Any clips of that, by any chance?
Press release from Operation Save America who claimed responsibility for this disgraceful scene.
“Theology Moved to the Senate and was Arrested
Theology has moved from the church house onto the floor of the United States Senate, and has been arrested.
Ante Pavkovic, Kathy Pavkovic, and Kristen Sugar were all arrested in the chambers of the United States Senate as that chamber was violated by a false Hindu god. The Senate was opened with a Hindu prayer placing the false god of Hinduism on a level playing field with the One True God, Jesus Christ. This would never have been allowed by our Founding Fathers.
“Not one Senator had the backbone to stand as our Founding Fathers stood. They stood on the Gospel of Jesus Christ! There were three in the audience with the courage to stand and proclaim, ‘Thou shalt have no other gods before me.’ They were immediately removed from the chambers, arrested, and are in jail now. God bless those who stand for Jesus as we know that He stands for them.” Rev. Flip Benham, Director, Operation Save America/Operation Rescue”
The best way for the Senate to make a point that such behavior is unacceptable would be to:
1) re-invite Hindu Chaplain Rajan Zed to come back and give another opening prayer, and then…
2) for the next several sessions in a row invite a Muslim Iman, a Baha’i, a Buddist, a Candomblian, a Jainist, a Jehovah’s Witness, a Jewish Rabbi, a Mormon, a Rastafarian, a Santerian, a Shinto, a Sikh, a Taoist, a Unitarian, a Wiccan, and a Zoroastrian (my apologies in case I missed anyone) to come and give an opening prayer just to make a point to these religious-right fundies. Then after everyone of these other world religions have had a chance to be recognized, the Senate should invite a prominent atheist to read these senatorial blowhards the First Freakin’ Amendment.
Then, the Senate should fire the offical chaplain and end this whole “opening the Senate business with a prayer” garbage, stick to the Constitution, stop playing the religious card to divide us, and start doing the people’s business in a responsible manner.
I’ll rally behind you on this, Tony! Great idea!
Tony, boy did you ever hit that nail right on the head with a sledge hammer. Bravo. Well stated and I concur 1000%. I can’t think of one thing to add. Please submit a copy to your Congressional representatives. This really should be the last peg in the coffin at least for this governmental hypocricy.
I posted this same rant over at Americans United, who is also covering this story.
Perhaps AU and DefCon should join forces and send this proposal of yours to the Senate, Tony.
I am so angry and, as a Christian myself, embarrassed that this happened. What is wrong with people simply practicing their religious faith in their places of worship and as part of their private lives? Why must some people feel the need to proclaim their faith over every single thing that happens?
I swear, I feel that some of these relgious-right fanatics could not pass wind without saying a prayer of thanks to Jesus.
Farts 4 Jesus
Sadly, but not surprisingly, the folks responsible are excoriating the Senate for not joining them!
http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/575363635.html
On the other hand, they follow a guy who calls himself “Reverend Flip”!
Randall Terry is the founder of Operation Rescue. Google him. He now claims to be some kind of expert on Islam, and is busy pushing the extremist view that ALL Muslims are a threat to our existence.
More on OSA/OR:
“Less known, but perhaps more revealing: OSA/OR’s office space was donated by Lincoln Log Homes International, whose CEO, Richard Schoff, was once a leader of Indiana’s Ku Klux Klan. Fittingly, a picture of the famous segregationist George Wallace hangs in the hall not far from OSA/OR’s door.
And a look at the cast of characters involved with OSA/OR over the years turns up a “who’s who” of the Bush regime’s most influential and demanding theocratic supporters. Among them:
# Tony Perkins, who 14 years ago could be found at Operation Rescue’s siege on the last abortion clinic in Baton Rouge, La. Today that clinic is closed and Perkins is the head of the Family Research Council. He organized the three “Justice Sunday” events to rally support to hammer through Bush’s theocratic Supreme Court nominees.
# Pat Robertson, who not long ago received a phone call from Karl Rove to discuss Samuel Alito before his nomination was made public and who penned the foreword to Operation Rescue founder Randall Terry’s 1988 book. That book detailed the “righteousness” of defying man’s law and launched the group’s hundreds of violent blockades of abortion clinics.
# Randall Terry himself, who became a fixture on nighttime talk programs last year as the lead on-the-ground operative of the theocratic power grab staged in the Terri Schiavo case.
At the core of OSA/OR’s efforts is an attempt to tighten the patriarchal chains of tradition. Consider: There is not a single anti-abortion organization in the country that supports birth control. Beverly LaHaye, the founder of Concerned Women for America, a group whose members Bush has sent as delegates*** to United Nations commissions on women and children, put it this way: “The woman who is truly Spirit-filled will want to be totally submissive to her husband…. This is a truly liberated woman. Submission is God’s design for women.”
As Benham, the OSA president, explains, it is this same ideal that motivates his thuggish approach to women at the doors of the clinics: “It seems ugly, my speech. But it’s because we love them that we scream at them. You have to have a bad guy who will confront them.”
http://www.worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2541&Itemid=223
Religious Right Interrupts Congressional Prayer?
Three Christians interrupt Hindu Prayer in US Senate Chamber.
Three members of Operation Save America/Operation Rescue who claimed responsibility, Mark. Now, they are avid anti-abortionists, and could hardly be described as “three christians.” The group they belong to make the RRR look nice, however, to know more, google Randall Terry. Oh yeah, Tony Perkins and Pat Robertson may have associated with them at various times.
So the religious trolls got hauled out and arrested, huh? What will be their flimsy argument now? Let me guess. They will cry “censorship” or say that they’re martyrs, even though they were very rude to fellow persons of faith and entirely out of context with the placing of their issue. If they really want others to show some respect for their pigeonholed philosophy/religion, then they must show some respect for the pigeonholed philosophy/religion of others. I wouldn’t expect anyone to tolerate heckling in this particular setting.
We can argue about this, but don’t you come into my house and disrupt procedures or I’ll kick you out on your ass, and I won’t give a damn what you are determined to prove or say about me anyway. You can go find your own damn forum. This is not about having something to hide. It’s about “Shut the hell up. I am speaking!”
If these “hecklers for Jesus” wore t-shirts with messages printed on them, like Cindy Sheehan and Beverly Young did at the State of the Union speech last year, I would have no problem with that, nor do I think the Hindu Priest, who was rudely interrupted, would have had a problem with that.
Just as the trolls who come here as enemies of church-state separation, to pick fights in order to get themselves banned so they can run off and bad mouth us as they will anyway, we know damn well that their kind do not come here to enlighten, let alone learn.
Let them complain about DefCon banning them. Send the people our way. Any sensible people will see the trolls for what they are – garbage.
Tony, what you said at 4:02 has got to be a gold star comment. I’ll bet that that is exactly what will happen.
Mark Jumper, it’s getting more and more difficult to distinguish the difference. Sensible Christians seem to be insensibly quiet these days.
It was in poor, poor taste for these three people to interrupt a guest of the US Senate. If they were really pissed, they should have gone down the hall to the Senate Majority leaders office and complained, but to do what they did was wrong.
Amen, Mark.
Richard said: “Just as the trolls who come here as enemies of church-state separation, to pick fights in order to get themselves banned so they can run off and bad mouth us as they will anyway, we know damn well that their kind do not come here to enlighten, let alone learn.
Let them complain about DefCon banning them. Send the people our way. Any sensible people will see the trolls for what they are – garbage.”
You privvy to something, Richard? We’ve had uninterrupted conversation here for most of the day.
Boy, just when I thought this story could not get worst, I read this from Ed Brayton’s blog “Dispatches from the Culture Wars”, where he reported that former Navy Chaplain Klingenschmitt (the disgraced one who had been court-martialed and relieved of his commission by the Navy for insubordination) had this to say about those poor persecuted Christians who got arrested for their actions:
Ed Brayton had the following comment to this:
Here’s the link:
http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2007/07/hindu_prayers_and_christian_he_1.php
Well said, Ed. By the way, Ed provides a link to this story; you need to scroll down to Update II. The comments left there by the fundie Christians in support of this disgrace former Navy Chaplain are priceless.
Excellent Ed Brayton post, Tony!
Quit the religionist bullshit and get down to business. Now.
We all have the same secular goals. Peace.
There is not a one of you that will oppose me when I say that we should be tolerant and kind to our brothers and sister humans, yet you constantly oppose each other.
In this broad sense it seems acceptable. Do you run your family this way? This is sheer lunacy.
Wake up. We all are of the same breed.
Are you intolerant to every decision that your family members make? Are they always wrong?
Is your family in turmoil?
Of course it is. And you should know why.
Value systems are the key to fulfillment of realtionships. Yet nobody knows about value systems.
Humanists understand this. The problem is that it takes a modicum of intelligence to understand the concept, and most people do not posess the wherewithall tou nderstand it so they stew in the juices of their ignorance.
Value systems are but one element of fulfilling relationships. Too often people make the mistake of believing that they have to share the same thoughts on all matters. The organized religious groups are dependent on this ideal.
To quote conservative writer Andew Sullivan:
“The distinction that others make in the modern world - that there is a difference between what we know empirically and what be believe normatively - is one the fundamentalist rejects. And what the fundamentalist knows is true. It isn’t a proposition, held provisionally, to be tested by further evidence. It isn’t an argument from which he could be dissuaded by something called reason. It isn’t something that is ever subject to change; what is fundamentally true now, by definition, must be true for all time. For the fundamentalist, there is not a category of things called facts and a separate category called values. The values of fundamentalists ARE facts …” (Emphasis original.)
Andrew
I just can’t spell today!
Love is merely the alignment of value systems combined with nutual attraction.
Love is just another biblical excuse for domination.
Dale,
Love is the feeling you get when a chick is real hot and you think she likes you.
Love is just another biblical contradiction. Love is merely the alignment of value systems combigned with sexual gratification.
Mark,
Yes, that too.
Been there, did that.
Awww. It’s so so sweet reading what guys think about love.
I was just kidding……
LOL. You crack me up, Dale.
Alba,
Confucious says:
“Girl that fy airplane up side down have crack up.”
Tony I agree with your 4:02 p.m. post. It would be good to see any and all faiths included in this and would be just as good to terminate it once everyone has had their chance. The Chaplain is probably a paid position and that salary could be freed up for something useful.
———————-
Richard K. good 7-something p.m. post.
Anyone watch the 20/20 episode on hell tonight? I thought it was interesting in the last section when the 3 people spoke about their horrific ordeals and how they are overcoming them. I especially liked that they mentioned that although they went through those things they still believe in the innate goodness of other human beings.
Share more, Carla. I missed it.
Why am I in this hand basket and where am I going?
human beans are altruistic. We evolved that way. There is a very good reason for that. Hint: it is a survival skill.
Q- From whence does ultruism eminte?
A- Post your answer
eminate
Does anyone believe that it would be inconsistent on a blog purporting to defend the Constitution to block a troll? I do believe the troll who called himself bill was given the boot…or his family recognized his deep psychological issues and locked him up. I cannot say I am saddened, but I have noticed the lack of …hmmm what would be a good word…chaos?
?
Alba,
With all due respect, don’t hold your breath. He will be back. There is no censorship on this blog. It is infuriating at times, but it is a necessary inclusion of some delusionaries to exhibit their irrational behavior to all that read this blog.
I think that altruism, morality is much like the origins of life, Dale. People will search endlessly to define the source of it, when, in reality we probably will never know. Religious people like to place it on an external entity (which they claim is internally etched upon the heart of all) - the promise of reward, or the threat of punishment, and because of societal norms, probably some of it is attributable to threat of punishment. They like to say it is what separates us from animals (ha!).
When I see someone hurting, I don’t actually stop to think about why I feel a pang in my heart. When I do something to try and help, I also don’t stop to think of what is in it for me.
That was a tough question…I tried, though my answer is most definitely incomplete.
The 20/20 show had several segments: the minister Carlton Pearson spoke about his change in beleifs regarding hell; a man who had 2 near-death exeriences (NDEs) he believed one was to heaven and the second was to hell and how he changed his life around; a talk with an unrepentant inmate in for murdering 3 people; and Elie Weisel “Evil must be fought” (that’s the segment with the 3 people’s stories).
THese are the names of the segments: Why Are We Obsessed With Hell?, ‘Heretic’ Minister: Nobody Goes to Hell, Near-Death Experience: ‘Witness to Heaven and Hell’, Face of Evil: Are People Born This Way?, and Elie Weisel ‘Evil Must be Fought’.
http://abcnews.go.com/2020
Quote, “yesterday three members of the religious right took it upon themselves to disrupt a prayer…”
Interesting words choices, members and religious right.
The other day at the weekly meeting of our local chapter of the religious right the subject of this prayer came up and by a 100% unanimous vote everyone decided not to protest this event. So I’m confused as to why Eliza came to think that one of our members would do such a thing. In fact, I called the national president earlier and she confirmed that the people involved were not members of our organization The Religious Right.
Hmm, maybe it was because she’s new and didn’t know any better. I mean surely she isn’t stereotyping an entire group of people. She has to have more tolerance toward people in general then to blame an entire group of people for the misbehavior of a 3 Extremists.
Maybe I’ll bring in up at The Religious Right Members Only Annual Picnic on Saturday.
Okas start the name calling. :
Correction:
Okay start the name calling. :
I don’t think God needs me to protect Him. Operation Save America/Operation Rescue is an ultra extremist, ultra excessive, outermost group of people who happen to claim to be Christian. For some reason they have taken it upon themselves to protect God. IMHO God is able to do that on his own.
“Its always okay to disagree, Its never okay to be disagreeable.” – Jerry Falwell
That Falwell quote will expose some of our bigots here at the CON.
:
I think Eliza referred to those people as members of the religious right due to their extremist intolerance for another religion’s prayer being done in the capital of a “christian nation”. Any extremists/fanatics are troublemakers, it isn’t important what their fanaticalism is about. But I digress.
Brownback’s take:
“Meanwhile, Brownback has become the first U.S. senator to publicly express concern over yesterday’s Hindu prayer to open the Senate. Brownback, who was not in the chamber for the historic prayer, would not elaborate on his feelings.
“I have some real questions, I have some real concerns about that, um, taking place,” he replies. “We haven’t, I haven’t put together a full statement on it, but I do have, um, real concerns about it … and rather than, um, saying something off the cuff here I’d, um, rather wait and, um, come out with a clear statement or thought on it at a later time.”
Brownback tells OneNewsNow he is not aware of any Senate colleagues who share his concerns, but adds “elections have consequences.”
your Falwell attribution is misplaced. Or, more typically Falwell claimed false credit for coining a phrase already exrtant at the time of Falwell’s usage.
Um, er, ah, Senator Brownback, um would you um, have concerns um if the um Senate had invited um er Rev. Moehler? um er.
Did George W Bush PRESIDE over your RELIGIOUS RIGHT ORGANIZATION meeting also?
The Leftist Liberal Organization had a meeting presided over by Attila the Hun.
Were you there?
Alba,
Good post at 11:59 PM.
Albatross,
I believe in your earlier post you referred to Dr. Albert Mohler, President of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. I would bet that he already has been a guest “chaplain” at the Senate. He is quite well know in Southern Baptist circles, the largest non-Catholic denomination in the USA. You probably recall that he has appeared on numerous news and evening shows when religious issues have been discussed. He is a very thoughtful academician, Christian theologian and prolific author.
MJ,
I know full well who Rev. Moehler is. My comment was regarding the disruption of a prayer by a Hindu priest, and the fact that Sen. Brownback was “disturbed.” My reference to him was my wondering if Sen. Brownback would have some comment or similar “disturbance” with Rev. Moehler being given an invitation to open a Senate session in prayer.
#
July 13th, 2007 at 11:44 pm
dale Says:
Q- From whence does ultruism eminte? (altruism emanate)
A- Post your answer
Doesn’t anyone besides me want to give this a shot? There is no right or wrong answer here.
Alba,
They must, as I do, feel that you aced that one.
Oh, thank you, kind sir. (curtsy)
Alba,
One statment in your response that I would like to speak to.
You said, “They like to say it is what separates us from animals (ha!).”
If altruism is the act of doing some kind thing without it having and direct benefit to us, then why don’t my dogs hold the door open for me? Why don’t they move out of the way when I have to step over them?
Actually, not too long ago a college student working in Africa was cleaning the cages of som chimps. She was reaching way back in to try to reach a stick that was a few inches out of her reach and one of the chimps came over and moved it closer for her.
There is also a Youtube video of a baby duck feeding some fish! (I’ll see if I can find that and send a link, it is too cute.)
Here is the video of the baby duck feeding the fish, but I doubt if it was an example of altruism.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPxDw7ajfGE
Dale, I did not at any time suggest that I believe that animals cannot be altruistic, hence my “ha!”
I have witnessed pets comforting other dying pets, when those pets had acted as if they hated each other in life. I have also witnessed a pet come flying when she thought something was harming my daughter who was walking around with a leg cramp saying, “Ow ow ow ow.” We actually repeated the “experiment” and got the same response more than once.
I really believe that there are only a small number of things that truly separate us (humans) from animals.
Further, my recently acquired dog (from the passing of my father-in-law) will push the screen door open, and hold it for me. He’s sooo special
and even has good manners most of the time.
There was a news report recently of a cat adopting some baby squirrels. She picks them up, places them in the basket with her litter, nurses them, and cares for them, as if they were her own.
Isn’t that altruism?
Yes, I agree, and I read it has something to do with the frontal cortex or something like that.
But, an altruistic cat ? HA!
Alba, I just don’t know. We actually had kittens a few years back that nursed on a mother dog. Makes me wonder though.
Now, now. Cats can be moody, especially the females, but, to adopt squirrels?? That is something, if not altruism!
Altruism–where is it from? Damned if I know!
I have a couple of theories: it could be a part of the nature vs. nurture debate. Some people/creatures seem to have an innate instinct for helping others, others do not but can learn it if they are around an enviroment that alturism is part of, and still others never learn it.
Or, it could derive from one’s capacity for compassion. Some of the most compassionate people many times seem to have a greater capacity for altruism compared to people who don’t seem to be very compassionate.
I have a brother-in-law that never learned it. What a piece of work. He has Never done anything that does not directly benefit him.
Way too many people represent that outlook, Dale. So does it go that it is inherent or acquired?
I think it is part of each. There are studies done on kids adopted at birth whose parents were highly dysfuncional and often, even with the most loving parents, the kids have developmental problems.
Obviously many diseases and personality traits are inherited along with the way we look, etc.
This thread originated on the Hindu prayer. I was over at Tony Perkins Family Research Council site and the front page is very critical of this. Highly bigoted, in my opnion.
Perkins has opened up his blog without registration and it is quite interesting to note that for as influential as he is suposed to be, he gets very few responses to his blogs, usually one or two.
On the blog in support of Vitter, there are eighteen comments and I think the majority of them are negative to his blog.
I would think his thoughts would be garnering much more positive attention according to his own feeling of importance.
You can check it out here:
http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?c=HOME
I want to know how many people are holding their breath and turning purple right now. I thought the “Madame” had released the full list of phone numbers at least? Many will not be traceable, but I hope the Big Fish you mentioned will be caught!
July 14th, 2007 at 12:05 pm
yahweh Says:
your Falwell attribution is misplaced. Or, more typically Falwell claimed false credit for coining a phrase already exrtant at the time of Falwell’s usage.
Please offer support, not just hot air.
9:56 post of mine. Sorry wrong thread.
From July 13th, 2007 at 1:30 pm till July 14th, 2007 at 1:23 am I don’t say a word. So everybody here at deathscon should be happy, right? No of course not. I bill am the reason some of the poor soul here get up each day.
Their poor, lonely, loony lives must be totally empty or why else would one of them post the following,
Albatross Says:
Does anyone believe that it would be inconsistent on a blog purporting to defend the Constitution to block a troll? I do believe the troll who called himself bill…
Its okay, stop your crying, just hand me some pie.
:
“There is no question that under the first amendment Zed enjoys freedom in this country that Christians do not enjoy in his home country.” - Tony Perkins, Family Research Council.
“There is no historic connection between America and the polytheistic creed of the Hindu faith.” - Tony Perkins, Family Research Council.
Tony also said:
“God was certainly a consultant, if not the architect of this nation and from that point forward they opened their sessions in prayer.”
Too bad god never had his own name mentioned in the documant that founded this country. He must have been doing something else while that document was being written.
The founders also proclaimed that seven of the ten commandments are not constitutional under the founding document.
Mark,
““There is no historic connection between America and the polytheistic creed of the Hindu faith.” -
The I wonder what the founders meant when they stated in the constitution that there “shall be no religious test to hold public office.” ?
Their are people that would liken the formation of the United States to the bible myths that god shows favor to israel.
There is no scripture or documant of any kind to support that.
Where in the scripture does it say that the mythical god of the bible favors America?
Some religious people who think this country is favored by god. God never said that. The mythical god of the bible said that the Jews were his chosen people, not Americans.
Dale, my son will be voting age next election. MJ, I believe you said your daughter will be as well. My son has repeatedly asked me about this. He cannot comprehend why all these “religious” question sessions are occurring instead of real issues debates. I have no idea what to tell him, or where to guide him to find more information.
Like me, he believes the P.Act was a total diminishing of rights for so-called security.
Mark,
If god showed favor to any religious sect in this country, he showed it to the Mormons, and their bible proves it.
Of course the founder paid lip service to the different religious sects, same as politicians do today, but they knew that the first, second, third, forth, fifth, seventh, and tenth commandments were bulshit and would never be able to be enforced in a democracy. Why? Because nobody was obeying them even at that time.
Yes, Dale. Why do you suppose it’s necessary for the Christian Army to form while pretending to align themselves with the Jews and getting Christian settlements into the area of Jesus’ birth. You’re right they couldn’t give a shit about America, other than for the Christian Army they can build, here and abroad.
Why has Tony Perkins changed the terminology by referring to the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament separately instead of the old Judeo-Christian Bible?
Global warming can be denied. Onward Christian Soldier.
Care for an online challenge of Left Behind: Eternal Forces??????
Alba,
I am very hesitant to give advice on how to advise kids to other people, but for me, and I have three kids voting, I gave them this letter written by a very intelligent and ethical person. He wrote it to his daughter and I have linked to it before.
Then cut through the BS as much as possible and choose the candidate that is most reveleant and comitted to dealing with the real issues of the day.
http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/dawkins2.html
I know that although you are pensive on your advice to your son, you will do fine, and in my experience in these cases, at his age, less advice is better than too much expect to answer specific questions when asked.
He’s learning to think for himself.
I know
. Although, I must admit, he has been thinking for himself since the day he learned to talk. I’m just pleased that he actually still cares what I do think. The debates we have are joyous. He’s a really level-headed kid with his own thoughts. He has given me plenty to ponder. Sorry…look at me boasting on one my prides and joys 
.
–”except” to answer specific…..
Alba,
It’s OK. I only start ignoring a person when they talk about how great their kids are after three minutes and thirty seven seconds. Yet, I expect people to listen to me brag about my kids for a full four minutes !
Dale, thanks for the letter link. As for my son, the fifty year old in a kid’s body, he would say, “What do you think I’m ten? You’re all such idiots. Don’t you see what it all is?” For the daughter, she’d say, “I’m not reading it/ You can’t make me. Can I get my ear quadruple-pierced? Lindsey Lohan did in her least movie, Why can’t I? you’re ruining my life.”
Alba,
Since it is a dead news day, let’s brag!
I am at the island in the kitchen and my son and two of his “cronies” came bombingthrough long enough for my boy to grab his sleeping bag and peripherals, while the cronies wiped out the stash of chips, weeners, buns, condiments, etc!
To begin with, I live so far back in the hills that even the whooperwills are carrying backpacks,, so, due to the lack of “formal” entertainment, we do a lot of outdoor activities. “Camping” is normal for these kids, all boyscouts.
I will be the first to tell someone that any one of them could go astray, but I reamain confident and try to empower them to make decisions on their own. I started weening my boy off of me making his decisions about a year ago, and continue until I see that a “course correction” is in order Then we “meet.”
Alba!
:0 :0
I Know!! My two oldest are girls. GaHHH! Frankly, the peaks and valleys were not too oblique !
OK! OK!
One day, my son and his buddies were outside, and I was tidying up my living room. They were about 11. One of the boys decided it would be great fun to vandalize his smaller brother’s toy. My son told him to stop breaking the toy. The neighbor asked, “What do you care?” To which I heard my son respond, “I am judged by the company that I keep, and I am guilty by association.”
We have camped all of my son’s life, and every year I would go over the rules of the campground owners, and I would always add: “You are judged by the company that you keep, and you will automatically guilty by association.” One year at the campground, the kids all thought it would be great “fun” to spill water and be wild in the game room. Floors got ruined, games got damaged. My son was home in bed. The video camera caught all the culprits, and curfew was reduced for all teens. My son said, “I refuse to come here ever again. Even though they have known me for ten years, and saw that I was NOT in that video tape or even in the game room, they have punished me.” I discussed this with the campground owner, who said, “He’s a teen, and teen curfew is now XX:o’cock.
He had been held accountable for the actions of others, even in times when he had tried to be ‘altruistic.’
July 14th, 2007 at 10:47 pm
Mark Jumper Says:
Was there something you wished to say, Mark???
Alba,
The trials an triblations of parenthood are “rigorous,” to say the least!
After my experiences with my Counselors -in-Training this summer, I have come to the conclusion that teenagers should be locked in a room from the time they reach 13 and not allowed out until they are 21.
the web is LOADED with quotes re Disagree/disagreeable.
I wont do your research for you.
You should have vetted the term before accepting at face
value a false attribution to a pompous, deluded megalomaniac.
Sure, I’ll agree to disagree with anybody, ut I will still be right and they will still be wrong.
I, bill am the reason some of the poor soul here get up each day.
Nothing pretentious about that pissant.
He made two obnoxious posts then gone. It was nice to have a casual thread going without much of his crap.
Dale, yahweh is feeding the troll about a quote the troll attributed to the late, not great, Fatwell. yahweh challenged the source. Ding dong hmmm hmmm hmmm hmmm…
shut out the truth
silence the host
play the part of the holy ghost
control the things that they need most
then rape their souls from coast to coast
someone said his eyes were green
but an eye defect of blue was seen
oh camera come true to the blood stained screen
of solomon’s silver
and babylon’s queen
messiah isn’t something that the serpent can deploy
messiah is a song of jubilee
messiah isn’t someone who the dragon can destroy
messiah is a song of jubilee
cycles that forward
keep circling back
to reason a writing of writ
to find the time that we all lack
to find the words that fit
Someone mentioned masturbatory thrills. I concur… I learned early on that masturbation softens my distress.
Let me set THE precedent for banning rubbish.
RUBBISH:
“I hate the Constitution – unless it serves me.”
“I will come here and piss people off, because that excites me on a masturbatory level.”
“I will punch you in the face with my bible, because I would rather make my/our world more hellish for those whom I disagree with, then I can complain about those secularists that want everyone to worship ‘Satan’.
“I hope GWB does something about “term limits”, by proving that a good Prez shouldn’t be stopped by mere restrictions.” (prophecy)
“I pray that Mr. JP Stevens finally gives up the ghost, and renders to the Court what those heathenistic/kill-everyone dummies deserve.”
Let’s go worship the beast. Come on….
Reverend Sun Myung Moon has extolled to us “the evils” of sex. Let us revere the man who will die VERY soon.
That’s right. I’m a troll………………………………………………………..
Lick the sweat off my stink’n troll back.
lick my bag
Trollestisiology - The study of unwitting idiots who are not as smart as the devils that their fallacies are founded upon/by.
Dale,
“If god showed favor to any religious sect in this country, he showed it to the Mormons, and their bible proves it.”
Excellent.
Good job Richard.
Joseph Smith, Jr. translated the Book of Mormon into English by divine inspiration from golden plates that he received from the angel Moroni. The Book of Mormon is another scriptural witness of Jesus Christ that is comparable to the Bible, which they also believe to be the word of God.
The Mormons are the only religious sect that recieved direct instruction from god right here in this country.
Joe Smith is the only Americam prophet.
Dale,
The Mormons even have their own state - Utah.
Mark,
Yes, they do.
There those two towns on the border where polygamy thrives.
Mark,
“Hildale, Utah is a twin town to the more well-known Colorado City, Arizona, both of which straddle the border between the states of Utah and Arizona. Hildale is the headquarters of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Many adults in the community practice polygamy. Since most government officials including the police force are FLDS members, the community is known for its prison-like atmosphere, in order to discourage any of the town’s women from attempting to leave the polygamous lifestyle.”—– Wiki
Sounds kinda spooky…….
July 14th, 2007 at 2:23 am
Bill_from_defcon Says:
“Its always okay to disagree, Its never okay to be disagreeable.” – Jerry Falwell
That Falwell quote will expose some of our bigots here at the CON.
July 14th, 2007 at 9:58 pm
Bill_from_defcon Says:
July 14th, 2007 at 12:05 pm yahweh Says: your Falwell attribution is misplaced. Or, more typically Falwell claimed false credit for coining a phrase already exrtant at the time of Falwell’s usage.
Please offer support, not just hot air.
July 15th, 2007 at 10:48 am
yahweh Says:
the web is LOADED with quotes re Disagree/disagreeable. I wont do your research for you. You should have vetted the term before accepting at face value a false attribution to a pompous, deluded megalomaniac.
+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+__+_
in others words your blowing hot air.
I hate heckling. I can’t think of anything positive that could possibly come from harassing a priest during his prayer. It sounds like another case of the graveyard gay-bashers…
On that note, did you hear about the fanatical group that was picketing and smearing the opening of the creation museum? And this group had the gall to look down on the senate hecklers! Talk about tacky hypocrisy!
Kizdeen,
Now thats funny. Picking on Clark and DefCon for their hypocrisy.
Comparing the demonstration at the creation museum and this event is absurd. There is no relationship whatsoever.
Hey, here’s an idea. How about removing the potential for this type of religious intolerance all together? It’s time to let those who pray and worship their deities do so without being subjected to hostile dissention in official public forums. Let’s just mandate that no religious test or activity during official proceedings shall be sanctioned or endorsed by the government. That way, acts of religious bigotry would be avoided all together during official proceedings.
This maybe should be made into law and included in our National Law document - the Constitution. In fact, to emphasize the importance of this non-endorsement policy, it should be the very first Law in the list. Too bad this wasn’t thought about earlier….wait a minute…
Alex,
Hey! I think you have something there! Why don’t we call it “The First Ammendment!”
Oops, somebody already thought of that. It should be enforced.
Dale, when read the stuff that Kiz and MJ write, I just have to wonder, what drives people like that to get up in the morning, check into this site and start trying to argue their right to believe their myths. I don’t give a hoot about their beliefs, one way or the other, truth be told, but I wonder why they come to this site — is it to try to win souls to Christ?….or to bolster their faith?….or just to annoy people they know don’t agree with them? What exactly are they trying to prove HERE? I just don’t get why they continue to blather on and on. Wouldn’t their time be better spent reading the Bible? I know it’s none of my business what they do with their own time, but jeez….ya just gotta wonder what’s bouncing around inside those skulls.
C.T.,
You said - “I don’t give a hoot about their beliefs…………..”
I don’t give a hoot if you do or don’t give a hoot about my beliefs. Believe or don’t believe as you choose. Being that this is an open to the public website I’ll exercise my perogative to make comments about the subject matter at hand.
I found Kizdeen’s observation to be accurate.
Markj Jumper Says:
Markj????
On the creation “museum” poll thread, this is what was last posted:
July 15th, 2007 at 8:43 pm
Bill_from_defcon Says:
“Back on topic
Latest DeathCob poll (page 4) show 32% believe the Creation Museum is Biblically Accurate or even the Literal Word of God.
And 89 % claimed the museum is Scientifically Sound”
THOU SHALT NOT LIE!!!!
Oh, I know, it was just a joke to blatantly distort the poll results, and claim that 89% think the megachurch is scientifically sound, by negating the 33% who said it was bizarre, or biblicaly inaccurate. Perhaps, this troll thought no one would see this post of his, who knows? How typical of radical fundamentalists to do something such as this. The “best” of their leaders are teaching them well.
Sorry for posting the proof of a liar on this thread. I’ll copy and paste on the correct thread.
Mark,
Did you change your name? Your new name looks suspiciously muslim.
Are you still treading water down there?
Dale,
I didn’t change my name. I must of typed it incorrectly.
BTW, which of the 310,000 gods is this Hindu preist praying too? Does anybody know?
No…and frankly, who gives a damn. Have you no respect for the beliefs of others, Mark, or do you think everyone should think just like you?
MjJ: He said “Let us meditate on the transcendental glory of the Diety Supreme.” Had I been present, I would have taken it as an invitation to reflect on the glory of God.
Actually, thre are both poly- and mono-theistic versions of Hinduism. Monotheistic Hindus understand believe that the Supreme Being (Brahman) encompasses within his Oneness three distinct beings; Vishnu, Brahma, and Shiva. They further believe that Vishnu has, on occasion, taken human form.
Imagine. A three-in-one God that has taken human form. No red-blooded American would ever believe something like that.
Strike understand, keep believe.
LOL!
“Imagine. A three-in-one God that has taken human form. No red-blooded American would ever believe something like that.”
Good post, Noyatin.
To Albartoss and all other atheist /agnositics out there:
Whether you want to believe it or not, this country was founded on Judeo / Chirstian principles and can be backed up by various writings by our country’s founding fathers, including Jefferson! Do you not realize that for the first 100 years congressional laws were backed by scripture? Just because you have no need for Christianity (for now that is) doesn’t mean the rest of us have to accept your views, no more than you have to accept ours. I do believe it a travisty that a Hindu prayer was allowed to take place in any part of our government proceedings as we are NOT a Hindu, Buddhist or Muslim nation, but have ALWAYS been considered a Christian nation and it should remain that way!
Concerning Randall Terry and the anti-abortion fight he led… Good For Him! While I do not agree with blowing up buildings (which he did not do.. that was done by some loose cannons) I do agree with the right to protest the abortion clinics (after all, they marched on Washinton to protest the Vietnam conflict and marched in the streets in Alabama about racial issues). People think nothing of protesting to save a few whales, but treat human life (life regardless of what stage of development it’s in) as though it is cheap and can be thrown away at any whim.
As far as having respect for someone else’s beliefs, I believe this country as a whole does have respect, thus the freedom of religion in our constitution, but that does not mean we have to listen to or accept them as part of our founding principles of this nation. You see Christianity is the only religion I am aware of that allows a person to exercise his free moral will and is the only religion I know of that treats men and women with equallity. Christianity, if followed correctly, has already given the freedom for women that other religions have refused to give along with giving everyone, regardless of color of skin, social / economic background, ethinicity or past failures (sins) to chance to have a better life through Christ Jesus.
I realize this probably makes no sense to you as to why folks would follow after someone like Jesus, but that is where faith comes into play. Hopefully someday, you will have that kind of faith.
Marj,
I would much rather have the Hindu say the above than I would want to hear St. Paul say, I Corinthians 14:34-35: “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church,” or many other absurd bible verses.
Unless I’m missing something, it looks like Tony Perkins has pulled down his criticism of the Hindu prayer over at the Family Research Council site. Interesting.
tdram,
What does one need to do to acquire the faith you are referring to? I’ve tried to acquire it my whole life but nothing happens.
tdram:
Judaism doesn’t allow its followers to exercise free moral will? As to holding men and women equal, I think dale’s post addresses that nicely.
This is just more evidence of the War against Hindus and the anti-Hindu discrimination that is rampant in this country. We need to take back our nation!
tdram,
” Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; …”
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html
Oooops. You’ll have to do better here if you want to foist your bullshit on this blog.
Who was that evil senator that invited the Hindu, Zed to pray in the senate?
tdram:
“Do you not realize that for the first 100 years congressional laws were backed by scripture?”
So the Fugitive Slave Act, which was passed by Congress, was backed by scripture, while the Emancipation Proclamation, which was enacted by executive authority, was not? Or were they both backed by scripture? If they were, doesn’t that demonstrate that “scriptural authority” is in the eye of the beholder? Also, please identify exactly when Congress stopped passing laws that were backed by scripture.
FYI - I’m neither an atheist nor an agnostic.
tdram,
Civil laws concern details of how humans interact as a society. I must obey civil laws, unless I can show that they are unconstitutional. They have little to nothing to do with your interpretation of the Bible, nor the Muslims interpretation of the Koran, nor anyone else’s interpretation of their religious beliefs. Those laws concerning your specifics of worship, would be ceremonial. Moral laws, such as not coveting your neighbor’s wife, or not smothering your meatballs with stinky cheese, are the fundamental aspects of a relationship with God, gods, goddess, Flying Spaghetti Monster - once again not derived from the civil code of law. I have no obligation as a US citizen to abide by your ceremonial, moral laws.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion
I know! It was the Interstate Commerce Act of 1887! Congress disregarded the many Biblical injunctions on railroad regulation and enacted this diabolical law. They played right into Satan’s hands, and I’m sure they’ll be amply rewarded in the Lake of Fire.
Noyatin,
LOL, It was Eisenhauer, in the fifties. I was there. Great satire
Wasn’t it the evil Mormon, Harry Reid, Dale, that invited the Hindu?
July 16th, 2007 at 1:58 pm
Albatross Says:
No…and frankly, who gives a damn. Have you no respect for the beliefs of others, Mark, or do you think everyone should think just like you?
Almost too easy…almost too easy… =P Let’s just say “sky faeries” and “myth-book” and “superstition” are pretty loaded terms. Does it bolster confidence in your viewpoint to bash other viewpoints? This is directed moreso towards dale and yakfay than you, Alb, but you may answer nonetheless.
Atheist - “I only accept what I or nerds in white lab coats can physically confirm the existence of.”
Congratulations. You have successfully impaired your own vision. I might not even be real. GASP!
Noyatin,
Oops, sorry, I read that incorrectly as “Interstate Highway Act.” Sorry I gave you credit for a funny, yet, it was still funny!
Alba,
Yes it was. Any idea as to his political motive?
Kiz,
Is it so then, that nature has endowed us with logic and reason, and your god has seen fit to ask us to forego the use of logic and reason?
Kiz, it is almost too easy. First off those “loaded” terms - not attributable to me, though I often wonder why one myth is preferable to another. I also notice you like to deride atheists, as if your comments will make them cry. Ha ha. and you also seem to label anyone who doesn’t believe in JC as an atheist. Why is that?
You make many snide remarks about scientists being “nerds.” I’ll bet the science “nerds” wouldn’t let you into their clique, what last year? Why do you use you computer, Kiz? Do you go to a Dr. when you’re ill? I wouldn’t think it right to look down your pimply nose at someone, and then actually use their knowledge to your benefit.
I refer to anyone who is an atheist as an atheist. “Believing in JC” has nothing to do with it. Where have I implied anything of the sort?
You almost got me riled up on that last one, Alb! But then I realized you were attempting humor at the sake of credibility, and once again you warmed my heart.
Well said Alba.
They love to bash on “science” (I hate that overly-generalized term) when it brings into question claims made by their magical beliefs. But when it comes to medicine, clean water, food production, and the other vast applications of TRUTHS that science has yielded, then they are ok with it. For thousands of years they have been trying to coax some kind of magical event from their myth-beliefs. Never once have they cured a disease or divined a better way to grow a crop. All they can do is bluster about the valuable content of their magical beliefs, while scientific progress and understanding delivers results.
dale, here’s a point we TOTALLY disagree upon. Besides the wave of nonsensical evangelical TV preachers, where in the world did you find God asking you to forego reason? I have YET to find a devine imperative of that kind.
If you want, I can post some threads of apologists and/or historians “explaining away” the social position of women in ancient times.
Kiz,
Good questions.
To me, believing something by religious “faith,” is to abandon logic and reason.
Now there is the kind of faith where I have met with my son to play golf every Thursday evening, all summer long.
I have “faith” that he will be there, and if not, it will be an anomoly.
I have no reason to have faith in a supernatural being, because he doesn’t keep his appointments as he describes in the bible.
I am sure that you can send me all those apologetics, but the bible is inerrent and as much as they explain it away, they can’t change the inerrent bible. If you would be willing to use the bible in a bit more allegorial fashin, then we can talk.
Kiz,
“Faith is to hope for things which are not seen, but which are true.” –Heb. 11: 1.
Logic and reason may make me be a bit skeptical about certain things in the bible.
Kiz: You can find God (or at least his self-appointed representatives) asking you to forego reason at the Creation Museum.
At the Creation Museum, the visitor is given advice on the proper mind frame to have for your visit: “Don’t think, just listen and believe”. Descartes represents Human Reason, saying “I think, therefore I am”. But God tells us there “I am that I am”.
July 16th, 2007 at 12:26 pm
C.T. Says:
Dale, when I read the stuff that Kiz and MJ write, I just have to wonder, what drives people like that to get up in the morning, check into this site and start trying to argue their right to believe their myths. I don’t give a hoot about their beliefs, one way or the other, truth be told, but I wonder why they come to this site — is it to try to win souls to Christ?….or to bolster their faith?….or just to annoy people they know don’t agree with them? What exactly are they trying to prove HERE? I just don’t get why they continue to blather on and on. Wouldn’t their time be better spent reading the Bible? I know it’s none of my business what they do with their own time, but jeez….ya just gotta wonder what’s bouncing around inside those skulls.
Mark Jumper, WHY, exactly, do you come to this site?? WHAT, exactly, are you trying to accomplish? I think it would be fascinating to read the reason(s) a person who claims a particular religion as ultimate truth feels a need to post religious ideas on a site dedicated to the proposition that religion and government be separate. Just curious, really.
Kiz, you’re welcome to answer my question too, if you like. Bill, you’re not invited, so please refrain as I wouldn’t read your response anyway.
C.T.
While I clearly disagree with Mark on many issues, he does present his position thoughtfully and clearly, and I for one welcome his blogging on this site.
July 16th, 2007 at 5:05 pm
Noyatin Says:
At the Creation Museum, the visitor is given advice on the proper mind frame to have for your visit: “Don’t think, just listen and believe”.
bill ask, could you please support this claim.
July 16th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
Kizdeen Says:
July 16th, 2007 at 1:58 pm
Let’s just say “sky faeries” and “myth-book” and “superstition” are pretty loaded terms. Does it bolster confidence in your viewpoint to bash other viewpoints?
great post Kiz
In reply to July 16th, 2007 at 4:07 pm
Excellent example,
Yes Faith can have a reason and still be faith.
Now before everyone goes nuts, understand, i am about to answer a post that was directed at me. If you do not want me to post something like this tell others not to make silly claims.
In reply to, comments made on July 16th, 2007 at 1:16 pm by dalebird.
June 28th, 2007
Evangelicals Reject Creation Museum’s Story
For weeks we’ve been talking about how the Creation Museum represents a schism (split) within the religious right. Well now we’ve got the numbers to prove it.
And defcon claims,
According to the poll:
95% of Evangelicals reject the version of Creationism promoted by the Creation Museum.
90% of Evangelicals don’t support Intelligent Design when given a choice between it and Creationism.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Fact, on page 8 of the survey defcon admits that,
66 + 6+ 11 = 83 % of the people surveyed believed God or an intelligent designer had something to do with the beginning of the world.
Only 3 % of people who attend church at least once a week believed evolution was guided by nature without a Creator.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
defcon headline claims, “Evangelicals Reject Creation Museum’s Story”
However, the page 7 headline reads, “Unlike their elected leaders, evangelicals reject intelligent design and solidly favor traditional creationism.”
Creationism is the Creation Museum’s Story.
Creationism is the Creation Museum’s Story.
Creationism is the Creation Museum’s Story.
How can Evangelicals “solidly favor traditional creationism” be called a rejects of the SAME story.
On page 7 zero percent accepted that…
All animals, including man, evolved from a
common ancestor millions of years ago, but
this process is guided by nature without a
Creator.
How can zero percent accepted evolution, be called a rejection of the Creation Museum’s Story.
Page 6 headline claims, “A strong majority of voters overall believe in creationism.”
Creationism is the Creation Museum’s Story.
Creationism is the Creation Museum’s Story.
How can “A strong majority of voters overall believe in creationism.” Be a rejection of the Creation Museum’s Story.
The second part of the page 6 headline claims, “Voters solidly reject intelligent design.” Which is NOT the Creation Museum’s Story.
How can “Voters solidly reject intelligent design” which is NO