John McCain Visits the Creationists
Tomorrow, John McCain will deliver the keynote address at a luncheon co-hosted by the Discovery Institute. For those who are unaware the Discovery Institute is the Seattle based “think tank” that is responsible for spearheading the religious right’s war on science education.
The Institute is responsible for, among other things, the creationist lesson plan that was proposed in Kansas, the anti-evolution language in the Santorum Amendment to the No Child Left Behind act, and the infamous Wedge Document.
None of our elected officials should lend credence to this organization, especially a ranking member of the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation.
McCain is a floundering fish. His oxygen supply is diminishing quickly, and soon he’ll smell really bad.
McCain is a political whore, plain and simple, who so desperately wants to be the next president. And they called Kerry a flip-flopper; just wait to see what happens if John McCain wins the Republican nomination.
Petition signed.
McCain has been out of touch with reality for a couple years now.
Having said that, my hat is off to him for his great service to the country and the huge sacrifice he made for us all while in the Navy and as a POW.
It’s over, John. You’ve done your share. You have become irrevelent.
Yes, I forgot to pay tribute to his past service. Thanks, Dale.
Both McCain and Romney have proven themselves to be nothing more than political whores. They’ll say and do anything for a vote from the rightwing fascists. One has to wonder why!!
irrelevent.
Romney declared that the office of president should be held by a person of faith. I couldn’t believe my eyes when I read that. He is not even considered a christian by the fundies.
obviously he didn’t mean a person of faith in the Constitution which states where will be no religious test for any elected official. Its right there in the freaking constitution, what is wrong with these people? Honestly? I want to know?
There’s something in the water.
It is really sad watching both McCain and Romney dropping down on bended knee to kiss the collective ring of Dobson, Robertson, et. al. in transparent attempts to “make nice” with the far-religious right base of the Republican Party. This is because religious far-right activists have so infected the Republican Party, and it is these activists that McCain and Romney have to bow to in order to secure their party’s presidential nomination.
So far, it appears that the only Republican who is unwilling to “come to Jesus” and change his position on the social issues championed by the religious right is Rudy Giuliani (I had to look that one up!), who is very progressive on many social issues. Which means that even though he would probably be a very strong candidate in the general election and give the GOP the best chance to win, he will never win the nomination because the Jesus freaks absolutely hate his positions on these same social issues.
I did NOT sign the petition … not because I disagree with the opinion, but because I disagree with the strategy. I do not want John McCain to make yet another decision based upon polling popularity, to feel “pressured” to withdraw. I want him to go to that luncheon and stand there and tell his audience what a bunch of irrational bullies they are, and to tell them that while they have the right to believe any darn fairy tale that they want, they do not have the right to impose that fairy tale on everyone else. Unfortunately, the site did not provide me with an opportunity to send my own message.
I didn’t have the quote quite right:
“People in this country want a person of faith to lead them as their…president,” Romney said on Fox News Sunday last year. But he bristles when his particular faith attracts attention, as it did in 1994, when he tried to unseat Massachusetts Sen. Edward Kennedy.
Read about it here, good article:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7245768
Scott, that is good thinking. Unfortunately, that is not what will happen. Desperation leads people to go against their own thoughts. Lately, when I watch McCain, I find that he is contradicting himself from sentence to sentence. He doesn’t stand a chance, no matter how much sucking up he does. Maybe you should email him directly with your opinion, since you didn’t want to sign this petition.
I wonder how long ago this conference was actually planned with him being the keynote speaker. I’m shocked DI didn’t cancel him out after Dobson dissed him.
“If a Nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be… if we are to guard against ignorance and remain free, it is the responsibility of every American to be informed.” — Thomas Jefferson
Please be informed that LJR is ignorant
Off topic: Does anybody see any coicidence in Great Britain drawing down its’ troops for complete redeployment by year’s end, and Prince Harry’s recent call to duty?
The Almighty Cheney has spoken:
WASHINGTON (CNN) — Vice President Dick Cheney said Wednesday he “fundamentally” disagreed with John McCain’s recent criticism of former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, and suggested the Arizona senator may owe the former secretary of defense an apology.
“John said some nasty things about me the other day, and then next time he saw me, ran over to me and apologized,” Cheney said. “Maybe he’ll apologize to Rumsfeld.”
http://www.cnn.com/POLITICS/blogs/politicalticker/2007/02/cheney-mccain-may-apologize-to.html
The sad part is that McCain was right. Rumsfeld is going to go down as the worst Sec. of Defense…what he left out is that Cheny will go down as the worst VP, and Bush, as the worst Pres.
Albatross wrote: “Does anybody see any coicidence in Great Britain drawing down its’ troops for complete redeployment by year’s end…”
Yes, I noticed that. Bush’s military alliance in Iraq is rapidly becoming the “Coalition of the Less Willing.”
The Bush Administration is trying very hard to downplay this, but make no mistake; this is a big blow. A long time ago I participated in a training exercise with the British; they are good troops to have with you on your side.
John McCain has been taken over by the Puppet Masters. I believe Karl Rove is controlling his body now. Let him go down in flames with the rest of them.
Tygered Says:
John McCain has been taken over by the Puppet Masters.
Isn’t that a prerequisite for seeking the White House - at least in the past 25 years?
I remember when the Bush campaign maligned him in 2000. The fact that he let them get away with it left an impression on me. Not a good one. Since that time I have lost all respect for him, and now to hear him deny things he said in the past, and declare the opposite to be true (his stand on Roe v. Wade, for example), just confirms that he is not to be taken seriously.
Actually…this petition is stupid.
John McCain has cozied with …for starters…The Dear Leader, Jerry Falwell, Geo Wallace’s son
and the ‘tool’ list goes on.
So we’re helping him?
And if DefCon is interested in seeing him elected…I’m outta here.
[…] As the folks at DEFCON remind us: The Institute is responsible for, among other things, the creationist lesson plan that was proposed in Kansas, the anti-evolution language in the Santorum Amendment to the No Child Left Behind act, and the infamous Wedge Document. […]
In NJ we have a Congressman, Scott Garrett, who is also a believer in Intelligent Design. We don’t need any more freaks in Congress or the White House.
Hey McCain— you need to hear this!
I just heard University of Wisconsin’s Dr. Sean B. Carroll (Professor of Molecular Biology and Genetics and an Investigator with the Howard Hughes Medical) talk about evolution and how the Discovery Institute cheats students out of an education.
Carroll, author of the recent book “Making of the Fittest,” explains that the US is paying a price for its lack of scientific literacy.
Listen here
Hey McCain— you need to hear this!
I just heard University of Wisconsin’s Dr. Sean B. Carroll (Professor of Molecular Biology and Genetics and an Investigator with the Howard Hughes Medical) talk about evolution and how the Discovery Institute cheats students out of an education.
Carroll, author of the recent book “Making of the Fittest,” explains that the US is paying a price for its lack of scientific literacy.
Listen at: here
Oh, just what the True Believers need to boost their credibility - a visit from John “Any Way the Wind Blows” McCain. I know that’d do it for me…at least until he sells out next week to the other guys.
And, damn it! I had no idea that the Discovery Institute for Idiots was based in Seattle. I thought all us Puget Sound folks were on the same progressive page, with all the theocratic crazies safely contained east of the Cascades. Granted, I’ve got some nutty Xtian relatives, and one or two neocon neighbors, but they tend to lay low out here in Blue Land. Damn it! Screw them, and screw McCain and the horse he’s riding in on, too.
Jesusland Event of the Day: Love the McCain youtube. It’s like reading Bushisms. Just amazing.
I forwarded the DefCon email to my email circle, and here’s what I wrote as a preface…
Here’s an email from Campaign To Defend The Constitution, known for short as DefCon. It appears that Pander Bear John McCain, who has been kissing up to the fundamentalist “christian” Religious Reich, begging for their votes, is going to be the keynote speaker at an event being co-sponsored by the Discovery Institute, a fundie “christian” outfit that has been working across the country to get public schools to teach “Intelligent Design” in science classes.
The fundies never tire of trying to undermine the teaching of evolution and other sciences. They want to teach kids that Adam and Eve were real, were the first humans on Earth (even though they don’t tell us where Cain’s wife came from), that the Earth is only 6,000 years old, that the Grand Canyon was dug by Noah’s flood 4,500 years ago, that there were dinosaurs on Noah’s Ark, and more nonsense.
“Intelligent Design” is their “scientific” presentation that goes something like this; “Gee whiz, life forms are so complicated, only God could have made them”.
Usually, when fundie members of some school board manage to get ID introduced in a school system’s guidelines, a group of parents sees the danger here, and files suit to get the system to drop ID. There was such a case, a prominent one, recently in Dover, PA, and the parents succeeded, and the voters booted out the fundies from the school board on the next election. Another recurring example has been the Kansas state school system, which every couple years gets taken over by fundie “christians” who then implement “Intelligent Design” guidelines. The next election, the fundies get voted out, replaced by people who aren’t idiots, and ID is again removed. This cycle has repeated itself in Kansas several times since 1999.
Well, John McCain is bowing and scraping to the fundamentalist “christians”, to get their blessings, so they won’t ruin his chances in 2008 like they did in 2000, when they punished him for calling them divisive. He has now reversed his earlier support of both Roe vs Wade and same-sex marriage, in order to pass the fundie muster. And now, he’ll be speaking at this fundie function.
Please….write the Pander Bear and tell him to quit kissing up to morons.
Thanks,
Don
That was great, Don.
Tony Says:
Albatross wrote: “Does anybody see any coicidence in Great Britain drawing down its’ troops for complete redeployment by year’s end…”
Yes, I noticed that. Bush’s military alliance in Iraq is rapidly becoming the “Coalition of the Less Willing.”
The Bush Administration is trying very hard to downplay this, but make no mistake; this is a big blow. A long time ago I participated in a training exercise with the British; they are good troops to have with you on your side.
Tony, maybe you should listen to the press report from Tony Blair?
Second, do you know how many British soldiers were stationed in Iraq and where they were located.
Do a little research before you spew out your stupidity!
I am sure glad I serve with Marines who understand and know their mission!
LJR,
Did you ever wonder why you don’t have any friends? Ever wonder why nobody like to be around you?
Isn’t it lonely be isolated?
Ya, hahaha. You just learned to capitalize Marine. I will doubt until the end every statement you’ve made about serving in the military.
Why don’t you tell us how many troops from Great Britain have been in Iraq, how many are being drawn down, and when they plan to have complete redeployment? Come on, LJR, do a little work. It will stimulate your pea-brain.
Dale, ever wonder why your ass is stretched out and can’t hold in it’s shit anymore?
Ooooh, LJR. Out of gas, huh? You become so much wittier after all of your arguments have been shown to be nothing more than a fanciful fairy tales created in your own wee, little, brain (or maybe passed down through your family.)
Curiousity, what in the hell even made you reference APA writing style? Could it have anything to do with the fact that I referenced HTML code?? Did your wittle pea-brain associate the two for some reason? I prefer MLA writing style anyway, and I don’t usually use the format in posting on a blog. However, it is important to document your sources - something you’ve never been able to do. I would guess that you know your sources are bogus and deluded.
LJR where are your scientific references detailing your claims about no homosexuality in animals? Coward, seems like you cut and ran once again. Not able to provide evidence to actually back up your lame ass assertions you move on hoping no one will notice like a little coward slinking away in the night.
You seemed to have a hobby of spewing stupdity followed by running away like a coward when the evidence hits the fan and your lies are exposed. A little lying wuss who can’t stand up for his own rhetoric and isn’t man enough to admit it when he’s wrong.
ljr said, “Dale, ever wonder why your ass is stretched out and can’t hold in it’s shit anymore? ”
That is so articulate I almost passed out. What a pitiful, pathetic, pathological, piece of poop.
ljr,
You can’t give one answer to McGinn’s questions yu worthless piece of shit.
You never answered my question either. At what age were you when you chose to be straight over being homosexual?
“At what age were you when you chose to be straight over being homosexual?”
Dale you are making a huge assumption here
I don’t even know why I am bothering with this, but here it goes.
The mental midget LJR whines: “Tony, maybe you should listen to the press report from Tony Blair? Second, do you know how many British soldiers were stationed in Iraq and where they were located.”
This reduction in the number of British troops being reported on almost all of the major U.S. media stations. I also read the news report directly from theBBC where Tony Blair announced that the UK would be reducing its troops.
Furthermore, anyone who is even giving cursory attention to the Iraq War knows that the British have been operating in Basra. Of course, the White House tried to put a good face on this announcement by opining that this troop reduction was actually good news and a sign of progress being made in Iraq. Unfortunately the latest available Department of Defense Report measuring the stability and security in Iraq does not agree with this rosy assessment. From the executive summary:
Furthermore, if you look at the figures on Page 28 of this report, Basra province is clearly identified as not being ready for transition to Iraqi control. This assessment contradicts what Tony Blair and the Bush Administration is reporting. Yet, the British are still reducing their troop levels.
This same DoD report was elaborated in a recent LA Times news report that reported the following.
Mental midget LJR whined: “Do a little research before you spew out your stupidity! I am sure glad I serve with Marines who understand and know their mission!”
And I’m sure that they have to use small words for you to understand the mission.
You don’t know the first thing about doing proper research, and you demonstrate your complete pig-ignorance with every post you make. Based on your continual demonstrated stupidity, the only job that I could see you being qualified for in the Marine Corps would be as a bullet catcher on the rifle range.
I agree. When someone is sooooo strongly opposed to something that really bears no relevance on their own life, it makes you wonder. Look at poor Ted. He “battled” these feelings all of his life.
***LOL*** I know ! These homophobes are often latent homosexuals. Just like Ted Haggard preaching agaibst gays, all the while being one!
Right on, and there is a good chance that ljr is battling his desires also. That very well could be why he is so misguided and ill-tempered all the time.
The more vile they are, the more you have to wonder, and LJR has been pretty vile towards homosexuals. Come on, LJR, just turn the doorknob, and the closet door will open. The truth shall set you free!!!
Well, I see that my response to LJR is still stuck in that never-never land of moderation.
I can just imagine ljr right now trying to figure out some really vile lie to tell us to try to change the subject. He’s probably real mad because we nailed him for what he is and the truth hurts.
Yes, Dale, we’re all such immoral animals. He proved this, you know, on the other thread. Something to do with APA writing style and HTML code. Go figure?!
Tony, break it down so there’s only one link per post, and delete all your despicable swear words
Damn, my links crapped out. Here is the first one to the BBC news article.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6380933.stm
Now, here is the link to the Department of Defense report I cited.
http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/pdfs/9010Quarterly-Report-20061216.pdf
This one takes a bit of time to open up.
And, finally, here is the LA Times story I linked to.
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-fg-brits22feb22,1,4360133.story?coll=la-headlines-frontpage&ctrack=1&cset=true
Your right, Alba, next time I will break these posts down a bit. However, I did not curse.
I’ve been out of the loop for the past couple of months but it doesn’t look like I missed much same old, same old, you all start talking about John M. or whoever and end up talking about this fascination with the same sex. One Question to all: who or what determines right or wrong? Simple question… simple answer please!
Why does the answer have to be simple? Who says it does?
I’m all for indivdiual liberty, so as long as your acts don’t harm others I think it is up to the individual to decide what is right or wrong. If my actions harm no one, why should anyone, and I mean anyone have authority over me to say what I’m doing is right or wrong? I’m abhor illegitimate authority and I fear illegitimate authority imposed on others through violence or threat.
Why does the answer have to be simple? Who says it does?
That is because some people only understand simple words that are explaned vvvvveryyyyy ssssslowlyyyyy to them.
Tony, excellent post on the British withdrawl of troops. LJR’s capacity for comprehension makes this beyond his abilities. I was joking about the swear words, Tony. I’ve come to know your writing style, and considered it very funny the one time I actually saw a swear slip out of you
Amen, John. I refuse for someone to come into my personal space and tell me what I’m doing is right or wrong, if I am causing no one harm, and violating no laws. I am responsible for my own behavior, and no freaking book is going to dictate to me what I should or should think.
above post corrected -
“should or should NOT think”
has_te Says: So we’re helping him? And if DefCon is interested in seeing him elected…I’m outta here.
I think DefCon is trying to show him how silly he looks with all his flip-flop pandering. He’s absurd. I can’t speak for anyone else, but I wouldn’t vote for McCain if he were the only candidate. He’s daaangerous. Maybe not quite as bad as what we’ve got right now, but so damn close to it that there would be no recognizable difference.
So, if you’d like to leave, bye bye.
Bigshow,
I agree with John McGinn, but I am more interested in your answer. Who or what do you think determines right from wrong. Simple or complicated answer is fine with me.
Jones says he has seen the senator’s speech and it “will focus on issues relating to foreign affairs, specifically about the Pacific Rim.”
The Campaign to Defend the Constitution’s Timi Gerson says the subject of McCain’s speech doesn’t matter, and is not the issue.
“It’s outrageous for a nationally respected political leader of his stature — who is furthermore a member of the Senate Committee charged with overseeing science — to do anything co-sponsored by a group with an explicit anti-science agenda that is trying to push theology in the classroom,” Gerson said.
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=2897153&page=1
McCain criticized for lunch sponsor
SEATTLE, Feb. 23 (UPI) — U.S. Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., is being criticized for agreeing to speak at an event associated with an organization promoting intelligent design.
The liberal group Campaign to Defend the Constitution says it is outrageous for a nationally respected political leader to do anything co-sponsored by a group with an explicit anti-science agenda, ABC News reports.
http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/Divine_Strake_test_explosion_canceled/20070223-101324-3613r/
Liberal?
Exclusive Update on Darwinian Upset
Discovery Responds to Darwin Outburst Against McCain Speaking at Luncheon
The second passage from Buckley, says Crowther, “sums it up nicely”:
(Crowther is director of media and public relations at Discovery. Buckley is a writer for National Review and wrote an article on Feb 16 titled “So help us Darwin.”)
“But the intelligent liberal community should not impose on anyone a requirement of believing that there is only the single, materialist word on the subject, and that only contempt is merited by those who consent to appear at think tanks composed of men and women prepared to explore ultimate questions, which certainly include the question, Did God have a hand in creating all of this? Including the great messes we live with?”
full article The Pearcey Report, and it features comments, etc., by editor and publisher Rick Pearcey, as well as by editor at large Nancy Pearcey, who is also a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute.
http://www.pearceyreport.com/archives/2007/02/post_76.php
Someone should send this to the McCain camp. I wonder if he knows he should be prepared to explore the ultimate questions?? Oh wait, he’s just having lunch with a group composed of people who think like this. It doesn’t mean that’s what they’re going to talk about. Whew, for a minute there I was worried that McCain was going in for a brainwashing session on the evils of science and the goodness of God.
There’s a link to a forum.
bigshow…
Only asshats like LJR are fascinated by the same-sex thing.
To everyone else, it’s not a big deal.
So…what are YOU wearing right now?
LOL!
Hey, I wonder if in addition to Clark and others just getting to the press, there is a fungus among us? MJ? Are you a fungus?
Reposted from Fri open thread:
Albatross Says:
Shit!!!! I hate moderation. Broken post to escape the hands of the moderators!!
February 24th, 2007 at 12:47 pm
Albatross Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation.
EXTRA! EXTRA!
Discovery Institute devoted an entire press release to Defcon
Evolution News & Views
News Analysis of Media Coverage of the Debate Over Evolution
« Francis Collins Handles Darwinism’s Universal Acid Like Baby Formula | Main
Fenton Firm Tries (and Fails) to Sandbag Sen. John McCain and Discovery Institute
Cross-posted at Discovery Blog.
Senator John McCain signing autographs after his speech on foreign policy at the Seattle Westin Hotel.
“Defcon,” the Campaign to Defend the Constitution (such a high sounding name!), put out a press release and blog post this week that attempted to sandbag Sen. John McCain, criticizing him for speaking to a Seattle policy luncheon today where Discovery Institute was one of the “co-presenters”. Defcon scolded McCain for attending an event in which Discovery was involved and for thereby “lending credence (sic) to this organization”. Defcon called on McCain to cancel the speech. At the definitely un-cancelled event today I asked Sen. McCain if he had heard of Defcon. He hadn’t.
Defcon is a creature of Fenton Communications, the left and far-left operation that backs the likes of Cindy Sheehan, Moveon.org, the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), the ACLU, Rainforest Action Network and Global Exchange (the anti-WTO demonstrators). Fenton is also famous for attacking U.S. corporations with bogus environmental and consumerist claims. “To Change an Industry, Target One Company,” is a favorite Fenton motto. Among the fake scandals Fenton has shopped was the Alar scare that unfairly damaged the U.S. apple industry. Fenton recently helped create Defcon, to combat, among other things, us.
he press contact for Defcon’s broadside against Sen. McCain this week is Timi Gerson, who is a Fenton veteran of Moveon.org. So you begin to get the picture. It is fair to say that we would not be Fenton’s favorite think tank on almost any topic.
The silliness began with a contradictory attempt to a) suggest that we had finagled a speech by an unsuspecting Sen. McCain to talk about intelligent design; and b) that we really were not involved in the luncheon event, after all, or had misrepresented our role. In fact, the major sponsors were Seattle’s World Affairs Council and City Club. They asked us to join them as a “co-presenter”, as we often do, and we agreed. This is SOP for non-profit groups in this area who want to build a crowd for a nationally prominent speaker. We do the same when we are the main sponsor of an event. (A World Affairs Council leader called after the event to express dismay that one of his staffers had made an “inappropriate” comment to a reporter that Discovery had merely “hopped on” the event.)
As for why we would be participating in a speech on foreign policy by Sen. McCain, it apparently is unknown to many observers that Discovery holds a number of foreign policy events; most recently ones on Somalia, the dissident groups in Iran and on current difficulties in U.S.-Russian relations. Our involvement in foreign policy issues is even older than our interest in science and culture.
Anyhow, for better or worse, intelligent design didn’t even come up at the McCain event today, though a reporter may have asked about it afterwards.
On the margins of the event I did have a chance to discuss Iran with the Senator (and with Iranian-American leader, Shayan Arya, shown below).
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/02/fenton_firm_tries_and_fails_to.html
And Tom Till of our Cascadia Center on Transportation had a chance to talk with Sen. McCain about two issues we care about: energy conservation and passenger rail reform. Tom is seen below explaining our proposal for Plug-In Hybrid Vehicles (PHEVs). It’s a proposal backed by several in Congress, including Senators Lieberman and Brownback, and Washington Congressmen Jay Inslee and Dave Reichert. Discovery and the Senator share a strong interest in passenger rail reform. Senator McCain showed interest. It’s all that we could ask.
One final thought about Defcon. Reporters should be wary of the ways Defcon represents us and our positions. We speak for ourselves and our positions are often very different from what Defcon tells the press.
Posted by Bruce Chapman on February 23, 2007 7:59 PM |
After the speech, McCain was asked by an audience member if he was “sucking up to the religious right.” He drew laughs by responding: “What’s wrong with sucking up to everybody?”
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=2900572
Gee, aren’t McCain’s knees getting pretty dirty by now?
At the event, McCain said the following.
About Tony Blair, he said “He has literally sacrificed his political career because of Iraq, That is a great testament to his political courage.”
Gee…what courage. What about the US soldiers who have been killed and maimed because of Bush’s and Cheney’s lies?
He also said “I believe that if we fail in Iraq, you will see chaos and genocide”.
Gee again…what the hell does he think is happening there now?
The Discovery Institute is backing the plug in hybred vehicles.
They don’t have a clue what they are doing. Electric vehicles that draw electricity from the grid are notoriously inefficient.
The reason why is that the power plants them selves are inefficient and then when they transmit the power over long distances on the high tension lines there is a thirty percent energy loss.
This is a lie that has been perpetrated for years in this country. Any electric appliance you buy is listed as one hundred percent efficient, and in the case of a space heater, yes the watts of electricity are converted into one hundred percent heat, but they conveniently forget to factor in the inefficiency of the plant and the energy loss in the transmission lines.
I also love that Discovery Institute has their undies all knotted up over DefCon. It means DefCon is doing the right thing.
Don,
Yes, and it was entertaining to see Alba obtain much glee from that fact. They asked McCain if he had heard of Defcon and supposedly he said no. That is a lie. But, anyway, he does know now.
:-) I’m still very gleeful!
“They don’t have a clue what they are doing. Electric vehicles that draw electricity from the grid are notoriously inefficient.”
Exactly and if that electricity doesn’t come from a form other than carbon based we are right back in the same boat as we are now. Anytime you convert one form of energy to another you lose some of it, usually a good chunk of it.
The only argument one can make for pushing these is that electricity can be generated via other means, some clean and renewable, solar, wind, geothermal, etc., others not so clean, nuclear.
Right on, John.
And the batteries needed to store the electricity from the grid are environmentally unfriendly (heavy metals, acid, et)c) and they need to be charged for eight hour periods. They are expensive and their service life is relatively short.
Fuel cells, on the other hand, will kick start the hydrogen economy. Fuel Cells are viable energy producers at this time, but the reformer part of the cells has not been perfected and the cost of producing electricity is still slightly more that buying it off the grid. A fuel cell takes a hydrocarbon faction like methane or propane and separates the hydrogen atoms from the carbon atoms that make up the molecule. Then the hydrogen is used in an IC engine that produces a little heat and some pure water only.
We have a way to go with fuel cells but they hold a lot of promise.
One of the companies that I have watched in the development of fuel cells is “Plug Power,” and they have some interesting stuff on their site.
Ultimately, we will need to extract hydrogen from seawater.
“and the cost of producing electricity is still slightly more that buying it off the grid.”
I wonder if one were to factor in all the social non monatary costs in to the equation how would the cost comparison fair?
1. Reduced green house gas emissions, check
2. Removal of our ties and political vulnerabilities with the Middle East, check
Those two alone would count for how many billions of dollars? Maybe trillions.
I honestly think that hydrogen and other renewable sources such as solar are viable now and just as cost effective if one looks at the real costs that eventually we all end up paying. But it keeps exxon-mobil real happy.
“1. Reduced green house gas emissions, check
2. Removal of our ties and political vulnerabilities with the Middle East, check”
Absolutely, John.
I don’t know a lot about this, but wouldn’t wind also be a viable source of energy right now, also? Aren’t there countries in Europe that are completely wind and solar power? Maybe we’d even have more to invest in health care if we had some of those trillions out of the ME.
But I have a question that might sound silly. They have talked about the conversion of corn to ethanol, and here’s where it gets funny. If someone was highly allergic to corn, and all of a sudden it was in the air all around them, wouldn’t that be dangerous?
Albatross, I’ll hazard a guess at this…I think creation of ethanol from corn would not present a danger to anyone allergic to corn. But I’m only guessing.
Anyone remember George Gobel…”Lonesome George”?
I saw him perform once, and he had a great line. He was playing an electric guitar, and said “When I started out, I used to play a coal guitar”.
Alba,
Every different region of the world has diierent meteorological characteristics.
Where I live on the forty second paralell in PA, even though My house is on top of one of the highest hills, there is not enough wind to make a payback on a windmill. I had an annemometer
oops. hit the wrong button….I had an anemometer hooked up to a chart for three years and carefully measured the average wind speed, etc.
Also, there is not enough sunny days here in the winter to make solar a viable option.
I use some geothermal but the groundwater is alwas fifty gegrees so it only helps down to freezing.
Now, you hit my hot button about the corn and ethanol. I don’t believe in burning ethanol, I’d rather drink it…er..I mean actually, bio diesel and ethanol are government boongoggles and they are totally loosers. You hear about them all the time now and everybody thinks we could make some gains by developing them, and some states are getting government money and subsidies to do just that, but, not so fast. If we were to grow enough biomass (corn, soy, etc, etc) to replace our foreign oil supply, there is not enough arable land in the United States to grow that much.
Even if we tried to grow 20 percent of the biomass, it would take up valuable farmland and the price of all food would go up, a lot. We would also have to start farming areas where it would screw up the ecology and do long term harm.
I agree with dale’s assesssment with regards to bio-fuels. However I will add that these could become temporary stop gap measures while we consolidate and advance our other technologies. We need to immediately cut our carbon gas emissions drastically and we need to as soon as possible get out of the Middle East. Bio-fuels combined with other technologies can help push us in this direction, but will require different perspectives on how we live and eat. Expect beef, poultry, and pork prices to raise and expect to eat less of them.
With the following we could cut our oil consumption by 40% or more almost immediately:
1. Energy efficiency, this can cut our consumption by 30% plus. More fuel efficient vehicles combined with more energy efficient homes and businesses. Flourescents are now mainstream and LEDs are coming along so lighting is good to go. New insulation and passive solar designs help reduce both cooling and heating usage. The real trick here will be retrofitting existing structures. Passive solar can be used to subsidize water heating as well.
Vehicles will have to be mandated, the industry and the consumers just won’t do it on their own. As much as I am for personal freedom the freedom for some idiot to drive a hummer on his daily commute is now impacting all of our core liberties of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. If you don’t have a true need you will be driving a 2-3 cylinder hybrid that will get 40-50+ mpg.
2. Supplement current fuel consumption with bio-fuels, nuclear, etc. These are short term stop gap measures until other alternatives come along to replace them completely. As dale stated full scale bio fuels is impossible. Cut oil consumption with these by 5% We already are on our way to producing nearly 10 billion barrels of ethanol, this would actually be over the 5% of our 150 billion barrels of gas per year consumption.
3. Active renewable sources where applicable including solar, wind, geo-thermal, and water. Cut oil consumption by 5-10%.
Alba, don’t worry about people allergic to corn, ethanol is not corn but an alcholol derived from corn (or any other sugar or via chemcial means) and when burned turns into water and CO2 just like anything else that is burned.
Nice assessment, John. Well written and I do concur, and although I despise “stop gap” measures, they are probably a necessary evil.
Have you heard of any new developments in extracting H2 from sea water?
Alba,
Ethanol is the same alchohol that is found in every alchohlic drink, wether it be wine, beer, or whiskey, and as you noted it is made from corn or grain and/ or sugars and starches.. I like to injest it in the form of vodka or bourbon. You can buy ethanol in almost every grocery store and all drug stores, but it will say (Denatured) on it. That means they put stuff in it that will make you sick as a dog if you injest it.
Methanol is “wood grain” alchohol and is poisonous and will make you blind if you injest it, if it doesn’t ouright kill you.
Both can be used as motor fuels.
Thanks guys for all the info. My son has a corn and wheat allergy, so things like that make me concerned. We have to be careful with a lot of things that have corn deriviatives. Of course the side effects for him are not deadly, just extremely uncomfortable…and no one else can get in the bathroom when he indulges himself with nachos and salsa!
Dale, John, what about wind energy off the Massachusetts coast? They have been trying to get something passed on this for years, but as Mr. Kennedy and clan have a lovely compound on Hyannisport, they feel it woud be unsightly, and intefere with their pleasures. (Kennedy’s logic could be different. I am merely paraphrasing my Dad’s ideas on the whole thing with Kennedy’s objections. My Dad loves to hate the Kennedys, especially Ted.) One of my friends seems to think the entire Eastern seaboard could generate enough wind power to nearly eliminate oil dependency in this region, anyway.
Wind energy is a viable option in some locales but has its drawbacks, namely huge windmills that not only create a noise and eye sore, but also can do some havoc on some birds as well. IMO, solar and geo-thermal are preferrable over wind and water just because those 2 have other impacts.
Al;ba,
Funny you should ask:
Monday, February 26, 2007
By Corina Rivera for SNL Energy Power Daily Northeast, February 21, 2007
Cape Wind Associates LLC filed its final environmental impact report for the proposed 130-turbine offshore wind energy project on Feb. 15 with the Massachusetts Environmental Policy Act Office.
The developer said the filing responds to questions about its draft environmental impact report.
“We hope this filing brings the public benefits of cleaner air, greater energy independence and new jobs closer to becoming a reality for the citizens of Massachusetts,” Cape Wind President Jim Gordon said in a statement Feb. 20.
Also Alba, if you check out the link below, it explains the meteorological issues in your area and the eastern seaboard. Much of the east the wind gets deflected by the Appalachians and does not recover well over the Piedmont, but is still viable in some areas, including yours., but I have only studied my area and a couple western states.
http://www.eere.energy.gov/windandhydro/windpoweringamerica/ne_building_resource.asp
One neat fact about wind speed is that “the power available from wind increases with the cube of the wind speed. This means that there is much more kinetic energy in windier areas and that a small increase in wind speed can mean a dramatically more attractive location for wind power development. For example, a 25% increase in wind speed (for instance, from an average of 12 to 15 mph) corresponds to about twice the wind power”
Dale, thanks for that great link. I need to look at it in more depth, but it wasn’t so totally over my head that I won’t get a better picture. I appreciate that.
John, your point about the eye-sore is what I believe to be Sen. Kennedy’s true and underlying complaint for the Cape region of MA. While he certainly is not the only family that would take issue with the attractiveness of it all, it still seems somewhat selfish for a bunch of elite snobs to put alternative energy supply behind their summer vacations. Priorities. From what I understand from my Dad, Kennedy is a huge factor in slowing the exploration of this idea.
Perhaps Ted is merely representing the requests of his constituency.
The other problem with windmills are those pesky storage batteries. They are much better now, but very expensive.
Kennedy’s constituency is most definitely a factor, Dale, but the Kennedy compund and self-interest is probably balancing the scale in this one.
Here’s a bird’s eye, in case you’ve never seem the compound. http://www.birdseyetourist.com/?p=637 and here’s the wikipedia link- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
“The other problem with windmills are those pesky storage batteries. They are much better now, but very expensive.”
Yes the batteries dealing with any renewable source is a pure PITA, however with solar they have these buy back plans where you are still on the grid, but during the day when your solar panels are generating more electricity than is needed its being bought back by the power company thus reducing your overall electricity bill.
I’m not sure exactly how this plan works, but does it still require batteries or is the solar power simply pumped through an inverter and sent on its merry way to the electric company? If we can do this with solar sitting on a house surely we could do it with a wind farm and we don’t even have to pass it through an inverter? Am I right on this?
Yes, John, you are right. There are a couple ways you can do it, as you stated.
If your electric company has a program for it you can send the power into the grid, through the inverter, thereby creating a surplus on your bill. That is best. This can and should be done with windpower too.
[…] “I do not support Roe versus Wade. It should be overturned,” the Arizona senator told about 800 people in South Carolina, one of the early voting states. Let’s remember that in 1999 when competing against George W. Bush for the Republican nod for President he said… “[C]ertainly in the short term, or even the long term, I would not support repeal of Roe v. Wade, which would then force X number of women in America to [undergo] illegal and dangerous operations.” He’s embraced the creationism movement and supports the teaching of “intelligent design” in schools. And later this month he’ll be speaking at the Discovery Institute, an activist group seeking to impose the teaching of creationism on all American schoolchildren. McCain now says he supports teaching “intelligent design” in our schools, although in 1999 he said it was a matter for local school boards. For more information on the Discovery Institute, see the DefCon blog’s post here. […]