Friday Open Thread
Happy Friday.
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DEFCON COMMUNITY
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100 Responses to “Friday Open Thread” |
The Man Who Claims To Be Jesus
Followers Claim Doral Man is God On Earth
Jose Luis deJesus Claims There Is No Heaven, No Hell
Followers Believe All Other Religions Must Be Destroyed
This guy has many followers and he is here right now.
Check it out.
http://www.cegenglish.com/
Here is a cbs account of Jesus.
http://cbs4.com/topstories/local_story_254163721.htm
“De Jesús had just a few hundred followers when he launched his church in a Hialeah warehouse about 20 years ago. Today, he commands a global movement from his Doral headquarters that boasts 335 education centers, 200 pastors, 287 radio programs and a 24-hour Spanish-language TV network that’s available to two million homes — including by special request from some U.S. cable companies. ”
I think this guy is for real !
Dale, you were not familiar with him? He’s crazy. He thinks he’s Christ and the anti-Christ. He does have a pretty large following though. I saw a picture of him. I’m shocked he’s able to stand up with all the gold he wears. Hmmm…maybe he is some supernatural deity.
I’M Gonna Join UP !! He wouldn’t be saying all that if it weren’t true.
One of the founders of Promise Keepers caught using charity money from Tsunami and Katrina donation relief for church operational expenses and not actually giving the money out as aid for over 2 years and not until pressured by parishoners.
So your a parishoner of this church and you give a nice sized donation hoping your money goes to help people in immediate need from either Katrina or the tsunami, but you later find out it was used to pay for someones salary and nearly two years later not one person in need has received one dime of your money. Would you be pissed?
You mustn’t forget that some of that money is spent on luxurious golf weekends for your state and local reps. After all you can only discuss how to fix messes like Katrina, and further your agenda, at a ritzy golf resort.
Dale, as for joining up with Jesus, I hear he prefers immigrants, legal or otherwise.
The Overlake church that John links to above has had their share of perverts.
“Overlake is in shaky financial shape. That’s to be expected given that the church had been hemorrhaging members under Kingham, a pastor who arrived eight years ago after the resignation of former pastor and one-time evangelical powerhouse Bob Moorehead. In 1996, Moorehead was arrested in Florida for allegedly masturbating in public with another man. He later faced allegations by male parishioners that he had inappropriately touched them. Kingham, in the eyes of parishioners I spoke to, offered necessary healing but failed to catch fire in the pulpit.”
“Kingham offered necessary healing…”
I suppose if mutual masturbation is healing…and I don’t think they need to worry about him catching fire in the pulpit…especially if they believe in heaven and in hell.
OK, I’m a preacher in a church. I decide I will go around the men in the congregation and grab their penises. Hey! No body will ever notive !
notice.
OK, Dale…you’re scaring me. STOP IT.
You can’t tell me to stop it! I’m the pastor. I can grab all the penises I want. And I just might go downtown and masturbate with another guy in public if I want to,..so there.
John said:
“two years later not one person in need has received one dime of your money. Would you be pissed?”
Hell yes I would be pissed, and especially if he was grabbing my penis.
Why won’t American Atheists join the Secular Coalition for America? They seem to be the only large freethought organization refusing to do so. More here: http://tinyurl.com/2ycyk4
Why are they all gay? Do they do anything to the women? I can’t locate the source right now, but there was some fundie really desperately trying to convince all the Catholics that they should become Evangelicals because of the terrible behavior of the priests! This is just hysterical!
OK, you can masturbate all you want, Dale…but remember, God is watching you waste all the sperms that are intended for LIFE dammit, not to be wasted on this evil act of self-gratification! You are SICK! Do you know that! SICK!
Since this is an open thread, I’m going to change the topic a bit. I don’t know how many people who visit these threads have high school-aged children, but the National Center for Science Education has reported that the Alliance for Science is sponsoring an essay contest.
Full details are provided on the Alliance for Science Education link within the report.
Tony, if they run that through the schools, watch all the fundie initiated lawsuits that come up saying the “secular humanists” are trying to force religion on their kids!
“…watch all the fundie initiated lawsuits that come up saying the “secular humanists” are trying to force religion on their kids…”
Actually, that approach had already been tried by a public school teacher out in California, and that lawsuit was defeated.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/peloza.html
In 1994, the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals upheld a lower district court finding that this public school teacher’s First Amendment right to the free exercise of religion is not violated by a school district’s requirement that evolution be taught in biology classes. The Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, in a 2-1 decision (and that one dissent was only a partial dissent) rejected the teacher’s definition of a “religion” of “evolutionism” and determined that the school district had simply and appropriately required science teachers to teach a scientific theory in biology class.
Thanks, Tony.
What’s this about Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez’ “First Freedoms” program to address any and all slights against religion? Story is he’s putting the full power of the Department of Justice behind this theocrap, training lawyers to defend religion against any and all “attacks”. Religion, mind you - not the freedom to practice it or not. Just wondering if anyone here has read about this crap. I saw it over on Crooks and Liars.
Dorris, have you got a link?
Albatross - here it is:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/02/22/one-step-closer-to-a-theocracy/#more-14628
Anyone have news on McCain’s field trip? I posted some things on the other thread, but it was all reports written earlier. I haven’t found anything tonight.
Here’s something from MoveOn.Org, which is circulating a petition to get permanent funding for public broadcasting. So far, it has gotten about 600,000 signatures. Of course, the fundie “christian” groups hate public broadcasting, because we homosexuals are using it to recruit kids using purple cartoon characters, so to counter MoveOn.Org’s efforts, the American Family Association has started its own petition, asking Congress to cut all funding for public broadcasting.
Here’s an article.
http://www.freepress.net/news/21196
Regarding fundie dickwad “Pastor” Moorehead of Promise Keepers fame, and this segment from the article posted by John McGinn…
“Overlake is in shaky financial shape. That’s to be expected given that the church had been hemorrhaging members under Kingham, a pastor who arrived eight years ago after the resignation of former pastor and one-time evangelical powerhouse Bob Moorehead. In 1996, Moorehead was arrested in Florida for allegedly masturbating in public with another man. He later faced allegations by male parishioners that he had inappropriately touched them”.
As Albatross asked, why are all these fundie “pastors” gay? Just goes to show what dale and others have said, the people who make the most noise about homosexuality are often closet cases.
I find it a hoot that this particluar “pastor”’s name is Moorehead. What could be more appropriate?
I guess I missed my calling. I’m gonna become a fundie “christian” “pastor”. I meet every single one of the qualifications.
It seems there IS only one single qualification!!!
Here’s something from an email I received from First Freedom First, about Attorney General Gonzasshole’s new project at the DOJ…
” How timely and hypocritical. Next week in Hein v. Freedom From Religion Foundation, administration lawyers will argue before the Supreme Court that taxpayers should be denied the legal right to challenge government spending that favors religion”.
It’s obvious that Gonzasshole pretends to support the First Amendment, when he really only supports half of it. Sometimes one half, sometimes the other half. Whichever half favors the fundie “christians” at the time.
Don, you are hysterical. Yesterday, Lynne said I owed her a new keyboard - well thank you there is coffee ALL over my monitor. You are a hoot.
About the Gonzales project - I find it funny that DOJ would take credit for a lot of those cases that the EVIL ACLU actually filed and won. Ex. “Awesome God” song.
EXTRA! EXTRA!
Discovery Institute devoted an entire press release to Defcon
Evolution News & Views
News Analysis of Media Coverage of the Debate Over Evolution
« Francis Collins Handles Darwinism’s Universal Acid Like Baby Formula | Main
Fenton Firm Tries (and Fails) to Sandbag Sen. John McCain and Discovery Institute
Cross-posted at Discovery Blog.
Senator John McCain signing autographs after his speech on foreign policy at the Seattle Westin Hotel.
“Defcon,” the Campaign to Defend the Constitution (such a high sounding name!), put out a press release and blog post this week that attempted to sandbag Sen. John McCain, criticizing him for speaking to a Seattle policy luncheon today where Discovery Institute was one of the “co-presenters”. Defcon scolded McCain for attending an event in which Discovery was involved and for thereby “lending credence (sic) to this organization”. Defcon called on McCain to cancel the speech. At the definitely un-cancelled event today I asked Sen. McCain if he had heard of Defcon. He hadn’t.
Defcon is a creature of Fenton Communications, the left and far-left operation that backs the likes of Cindy Sheehan, Moveon.org, the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), the ACLU, Rainforest Action Network and Global Exchange (the anti-WTO demonstrators). Fenton is also famous for attacking U.S. corporations with bogus environmental and consumerist claims. “To Change an Industry, Target One Company,” is a favorite Fenton motto. Among the fake scandals Fenton has shopped was the Alar scare that unfairly damaged the U.S. apple industry. Fenton recently helped create Defcon, to combat, among other things, us.
he press contact for Defcon’s broadside against Sen. McCain this week is Timi Gerson, who is a Fenton veteran of Moveon.org. So you begin to get the picture. It is fair to say that we would not be Fenton’s favorite think tank on almost any topic.
The silliness began with a contradictory attempt to a) suggest that we had finagled a speech by an unsuspecting Sen. McCain to talk about intelligent design; and b) that we really were not involved in the luncheon event, after all, or had misrepresented our role. In fact, the major sponsors were Seattle’s World Affairs Council and City Club. They asked us to join them as a “co-presenter”, as we often do, and we agreed. This is SOP for non-profit groups in this area who want to build a crowd for a nationally prominent speaker. We do the same when we are the main sponsor of an event. (A World Affairs Council leader called after the event to express dismay that one of his staffers had made an “inappropriate” comment to a reporter that Discovery had merely “hopped on” the event.)
As for why we would be participating in a speech on foreign policy by Sen. McCain, it apparently is unknown to many observers that Discovery holds a number of foreign policy events; most recently ones on Somalia, the dissident groups in Iran and on current difficulties in U.S.-Russian relations. Our involvement in foreign policy issues is even older than our interest in science and culture.
Anyhow, for better or worse, intelligent design didn’t even come up at the McCain event today, though a reporter may have asked about it afterwards.
On the margins of the event I did have a chance to discuss Iran with the Senator (and with Iranian-American leader, Shayan Arya, shown below).
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/02/fenton_firm_tries_and_fails_to.html
And Tom Till of our Cascadia Center on Transportation had a chance to talk with Sen. McCain about two issues we care about: energy conservation and passenger rail reform. Tom is seen below explaining our proposal for Plug-In Hybrid Vehicles (PHEVs). It’s a proposal backed by several in Congress, including Senators Lieberman and Brownback, and Washington Congressmen Jay Inslee and Dave Reichert. Discovery and the Senator share a strong interest in passenger rail reform. Senator McCain showed interest. It’s all that we could ask.
One final thought about Defcon. Reporters should be wary of the ways Defcon represents us and our positions. We speak for ourselves and our positions are often very different from what Defcon tells the press.
Posted by Bruce Chapman on February 23, 2007 7:59 PM | Permalink
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TrackBack URL for this entry:
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The misreporting of the evolution issue is one key reason for this site. Unfortunately, much of the news coverage has been sloppy, inaccurate, and in some cases, overtly biased. Evolution News & Views presents analysis of that coverage, as well as original reporting that accurately delivers information about the current state of the debate over Darwinian evolution. Click here to read more.
Shit!!!! I hate moderation. Broken post to escape the hands of the moderators!!
February 24th, 2007 at 12:47 pm
Albatross Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation.
EXTRA! EXTRA!
Discovery Institute devoted an entire press release to Defcon
Evolution News & Views
News Analysis of Media Coverage of the Debate Over Evolution
« Francis Collins Handles Darwinism’s Universal Acid Like Baby Formula | Main
Fenton Firm Tries (and Fails) to Sandbag Sen. John McCain and Discovery Institute
Cross-posted at Discovery Blog.
Senator John McCain signing autographs after his speech on foreign policy at the Seattle Westin Hotel.
“Defcon,” the Campaign to Defend the Constitution (such a high sounding name!), put out a press release and blog post this week that attempted to sandbag Sen. John McCain, criticizing him for speaking to a Seattle policy luncheon today where Discovery Institute was one of the “co-presenters”. Defcon scolded McCain for attending an event in which Discovery was involved and for thereby “lending credence (sic) to this organization”. Defcon called on McCain to cancel the speech. At the definitely un-cancelled event today I asked Sen. McCain if he had heard of Defcon. He hadn’t.
Defcon is a creature of Fenton Communications, the left and far-left operation that backs the likes of Cindy Sheehan, Moveon.org, the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), the ACLU, Rainforest Action Network and Global Exchange (the anti-WTO demonstrators). Fenton is also famous for attacking U.S. corporations with bogus environmental and consumerist claims. “To Change an Industry, Target One Company,” is a favorite Fenton motto. Among the fake scandals Fenton has shopped was the Alar scare that unfairly damaged the U.S. apple industry. Fenton recently helped create Defcon, to combat, among other things, us.
he press contact for Defcon’s broadside against Sen. McCain this week is Timi Gerson, who is a Fenton veteran of Moveon.org. So you begin to get the picture. It is fair to say that we would not be Fenton’s favorite think tank on almost any topic.
The silliness began with a contradictory attempt to a) suggest that we had finagled a speech by an unsuspecting Sen. McCain to talk about intelligent design; and b) that we really were not involved in the luncheon event, after all, or had misrepresented our role. In fact, the major sponsors were Seattle’s World Affairs Council and City Club. They asked us to join them as a “co-presenter”, as we often do, and we agreed. This is SOP for non-profit groups in this area who want to build a crowd for a nationally prominent speaker. We do the same when we are the main sponsor of an event. (A World Affairs Council leader called after the event to express dismay that one of his staffers had made an “inappropriate” comment to a reporter that Discovery had merely “hopped on” the event.)
As for why we would be participating in a speech on foreign policy by Sen. McCain, it apparently is unknown to many observers that Discovery holds a number of foreign policy events; most recently ones on Somalia, the dissident groups in Iran and on current difficulties in U.S.-Russian relations. Our involvement in foreign policy issues is even older than our interest in science and culture.
Anyhow, for better or worse, intelligent design didn’t even come up at the McCain event today, though a reporter may have asked about it afterwards.
On the margins of the event I did have a chance to discuss Iran with the Senator (and with Iranian-American leader, Shayan Arya, shown below).
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/02/fenton_firm_tries_and_fails_to.html
And Tom Till of our Cascadia Center on Transportation had a chance to talk with Sen. McCain about two issues we care about: energy conservation and passenger rail reform. Tom is seen below explaining our proposal for Plug-In Hybrid Vehicles (PHEVs). It’s a proposal backed by several in Congress, including Senators Lieberman and Brownback, and Washington Congressmen Jay Inslee and Dave Reichert. Discovery and the Senator share a strong interest in passenger rail reform. Senator McCain showed interest. It’s all that we could ask.
One final thought about Defcon. Reporters should be wary of the ways Defcon represents us and our positions. We speak for ourselves and our positions are often very different from what Defcon tells the press.
Posted by Bruce Chapman on February 23, 2007 7:59 PM |
Clark and DefCon contributors,
Keep up the good work!!! Apparantly we have managed to tickle the little ass hairs of DI. Of course, though, they cry that we are not accurately representing them and their “work.”
In the words of the Vonage commerical:
Woo hoo. Woo hoo hoo. Woo hoo. Woo hoo hoo.
Wake up, people. I am beside myself with glee…
Albatross, this isn’t the first time the Discovery Institute has come after DefCon.
Thanks for the links, Clark. This is the first time I’ve seen it, and I’m still beside myself with glee.
Keep on
Alba,
After living thirty some years as a lightning rod, I am not quite a tickled as you are. A good law suit would make me think we are really being effective, though.
I’m suspicious of any religion-based organization that is cozying up to political power. I don’t care how many “green” projects they claim they’re sponsoring, or what good intentions they claim to have. Seeing how these asshats behave when they are caught with their pants down or their hands in the cookie jar, and seeing how similar their ideology basically is to that of the Taliban doesn’t leave me with any sympathy for their persecution complex. Let them scream. The more their greed, repression, intolerance and bigotry are in the public eye, the deeper they dig their own hole.
Alba,
Your declaration of glee is making me gleeful. I was sitting here in the kitchen in glee and my wife walked through and asked as to what would I attribute my gleefulness ! ?
I told her that this gal I know was in a state of glee because her group was attacked in the media by a conservative right wing christo facist pigheaded caveman, sophomorically and emotionally tied to religious sects that believe the earth is six thousand years old.
Of course she said that, was I still fighting those old battles and I say of course I do and she asks if there aren’t any bigger fish to fry…..because, by the way do those people still argue about the existence of god, and et. and I say of course not you ignorant slut, eveybody knows that god is a mental fabrication.
She said that I always say stuff like that and obsess about silly words after my traditional Saturday night rib steak with it’s attendant three stiffeners of bourbon and branch water (shhhh, don’t tell her I had four tonight.) The conversation deteriorated from there to produce a profound hilarity about the concept and entymology on the word, glee. Say it over and over again to produce suicidal fantasies, I know I do.
And, might I add, that any candidate who wants to hang around with them, but can’t remember what he has said to whom is OK, too. I think McCain has been summed up long before now, but it just kind of drops a cherry on top. I’m sure DI’s direct line to Dobson was ringing shortly thereafter. Who knows maybe even a party-line chat with some others.
To hear the DI guy saying most discussion was on Iraq - “we do have foreign interests, you know” is just too funny…and disheartening all at the same time. Global ignorance.
Dale, Dover, PA was a good one. Gotta start somewhere, and keep on.
“When good people in any country cease their vigilance and struggle, then evil men prevail.” Pearl S. Buck
Dale,
I’m glad I could oblige you with my gleefulness, but please tell me that you meant to say the conversation took on profound hilarity as you discussed the etiology of the word glee, and not the entymology. I will let it slide, though, since you confess to 4 drinks at dinner instead of three…
HEY MRS DALE - HE HAD 4 DRINKS WITH DINNER, NOT 3 …that’s why he wants to talk about happy bugs
The American Crimminal Lawyers Association ACLU caught with child porn
http://www.washtimes.com/metro/20070223-104642-1644r.htm
ACLU and terrorism
http://bob.wjla.com/headlines/0207/400208.html
GOD BLESS AMERICA
ONE NATION UNDER GOD
Hey, LJR, for some reason I’m not able to access the Washington Times. Do you have another source for the story? I’d like to read more about it.
GOP Donor Hit With Terror ChargesNew York Republican Donor Pleads Not Guilty to Terrorist Charges
By LIZ SIDOTI
WASHINGTON Feb 20, 2007 (AP)— A New York man accused of trying to help terrorists in Afghanistan has donated some $15,000 to the House Republicans’ campaign committee over three years.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=2890980
Not the Republicans AND the ACLU? Oh, my.
Seriously, LJR, do you have another link for the former ACLU president? I’d like to see it.
Never mind, LJR. I found it. You know if it turns out to be true, than he deserves whatever punishment the courts dole out, just like if it came out tomorrow that Ted Haggart, or anyone else, did the same.
Its good to see a ACLU hack go down. Perhaps he’ll end up in the penitentiary with a bunch of sodomite fags for cellmates. A reward for his service at the ACLU.
Bruce Chapman of the Discovery Institute was quoted in the article as saying “Our involvement in foreign policy issues is even older than our interest in science and culture”.
Now, we have an explanation for the Iraq disaster!
Soon to fall will be science and culture.
Dale, I’m also a bourbon fan. Usually drink it with Coca Cola. Years ago, a musician friend from West Virginia introduced me to it. Then someone told me a stock car driver named Pops Turner had made the mix somewhat famous.
Don,
I did hear that some beginners do actually mix Coca Cola with bourbon, thereby completely ruining the nature of the boubon. But then some people drink for the buzz only.
I like to keep a couple bottles of thirty year old Glensevitch single mallt scotch around for special occasions, and if anyone goes near that stuff with a bottle of Coke I will rip off their arms and legs and beat them with the bloody stumps.
Don,
Next time you fortify your pantry with a bottle of Bourbon, you might want to try a W.L. Weller - Antique Collection, Buffalo Trace Distillary 19 year old, 90 proof. Two ounces in a chilled glass with a splash of club soda or branch water. Smooth as silk.
Mark Jumper Says: Its good to see a ACLU hack go down.
I suppose it is joyous to you, MJ. Now you can understand the pleasure others feel when the likes of Ted Haggart and his pals, or the neocons, or the Tom Delays, receive their rewards for service tothe world. Yes, it’s always good to be able to know how others feel.
Don Rettmann Says: Here’s something from MoveOn.Org, which is circulating a petition to get permanent funding for public broadcasting. So far, it has gotten about 600,000 signatures. Of course, the fundie “christian” groups hate public broadcasting, because we homosexuals are using it to recruit kids using purple cartoon characters.
Now, Don, do not forget about Bert and Ernie. The were the closet homosexuals who started the whole evil spiral of using PBS to push the homosexual “agenda.” Another that I’ve mentioned from time to time is The Free Speech Channel. If you should have an opportunity to check them out, I recommend it highly. I caught them one night at 3:30 in the morning when I couldn’t sleep, and I’ve loved it since. They air Democracy Now, a lot of Bill Moyers, and do more than gloss over the numerous misdeeds of DC.
They also had a show one night about how the Christian Missionaries are actually causing the incidence of Aids to go up again in Kenya by preaching abstinence only, and shipments of condoms mysteriously disappear. New studies there are showing the astounding new figures of married, monogamous women being one the highest population infected with HIV/Aids. Curious, that the fundies often preach homosexuality as an abomination, and then, well, you know the rest, but then married, monogamous women (who were declared virgins at marriage I might add) are now contracting HIV/Aids and passing it to their children in utero aftertheir familes have been proselytized to by the fundies on the benefits of abstinence, monogamy, and marriage.
Slavery Ties Sharpton to Thurmond
AP
NEW YORK (Feb. 25) - Genealogists have revealed that the Rev. Al Sharpton is a descendent of a slave owned by relatives of the late Sen. Strom Thurmond - a discovery the civil rights activist on Sunday called “shocking.” …
Thurmond’s children have acknowledged that Thurmond fathered a biracial daughter. Essie Mae Washington-Williams’ mother was a housekeeper in the home of Thurmond’s parents…
http://news.aol.com/topnews/articles/_a/slavery-ties-sharpton-to-thurmond/20070225140509990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001
How’s that for hypocrisy? The king of segregation!
Dale, I am guilty of bourbon abomination. I offer no defense. But, I love it with Coke. If not with Coke, I also enjoy it on the rocks without any soda or water mixer. And I also enjoy scotch, and drink it exclusively without a mixer. But my favorite beverage of all…drum roll please…is Hood egg nog with nothing mixed in.
Albatross, I don’t think my cable carrier offers the Free Speech channel. I’m delighted that Bill Moyers has an outlet with them. The neocons absolutely hate him. Back in the early 90’s, I attended a People For The American Way dinner honoring founder Norman Lear in NYC, and it was amazing how many well known people were there. The list included Gregory Peck, Alan Alda, Walter Cronkite, Alec Baldwin, Jeanne Stapleton, and yes, Bill Moyers. Moyers was very accessible to anyone who wanted to speak with him.
Albatross, thanks for reminding me of Bert and Ernie. I’d forgotten about those two rascals.
I heard on the radio news while driving my trip on Sunday that movie director James Cameron, of “Titanic” fame, is working on a documentary about an archaeological discovery made around 1980 that is beginning to cause some consternation among some Christians. He has said the discovery was of some coffins (must have been ossuaries) found in a cave in Jerusalem that have inscriptions on them indicating they contain the remains of Jesus and his family.
Should be interesting.
Don,
I was just kidding anyways. I was mimicking those bourban snobs you run in to. One of my cronies says that mixing anything with good bourban is “alchohol abuse.”
What is it that the RR does not like about public brodcasting? They tell the truth as far as it can be acertained. No spinning religious superstition into their stuff.
Don,
From the information that I have recieved, albeit second hand, is that those coffins are a hoax of some kind.
Regarding those coffins, even if one did have Jesus in it, proving it would be pretty much a fruitless venture. They claim to have used DNA evidence to prove it, but I don’t see how that really helps them without other DNA to compare it to. It seems like a publicity stunt to me.
I’ll have to serach for the whole story, but PBS canceled a scheduled show and the RR cried fould play, persecution by the liberal media. Anything that swings against them is an evil liberal ploy.
I’ve heard about the coffin controversy, too, and J-Bar, I agree. How in the hell would you test the DNA? Wait! If we are all the children of God, then OUR DNA should match! Any one of us!
“The most significant attack on Lemaire and Shanks has come from Rochelle Altman, an expert in the study of inscriptions and writing techniques. She argues that the ossuary itself should be dated from the time of King Herod, decades before the death of James in 62 A.D. Furthermore, she contends that the words “brother of Jesus” are in a different handwriting, added to the inscription some time in the third or fourth century.
Altman is so certain that the words about Jesus are forged that she wrote that a person would have to be “as blind as a bat” not to notice the two different writing styles on the inscription. Her critics have dismissed her as an “unknown” scholar, suggesting that she is writing outside her area of expertise and has the audacity to make dogmatic comments when she has not even examined the ossuary directly.”
http://www.christianity.ca/church/history/2003/06.001.html
Sorry the post above is referring to a different discovery.
This is the one we have been referring to. The discovery was supposedly made by a “film Maker.” How convenient.
“The ‘2,000-year-old’ coffins were found in Jerusalem in 1980.
According to the Cameron programme, they do not contradict the biblical story of Christ’s resurrection – but it is claimed the human remains are those of Jesus and Mary Magdalene.”
http://www.metro.co.uk/fame/article.html?in_article_id=38824&in_page_id=7
From PZ Meyers at Phangula:
“But film-makers Cameron and Jacobovici claim to have amassed evidence through DNA tests, archeological evidence and Biblical studies, that the 10 coffins belong to Jesus and his family.
Wait, DNA tests? What did they do, knock on god’s door with a court order in hand and demand a blood sample? ”
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/02/errm_what.php#comments
Cameron and Jacobovici defend their “discovery” on MSNBC.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17343263/
Faux News:
http://www.msnbc.com/comics/daily.asp?sfile=nq070226&vts=22620070904
All,
I have actual proof of how intelligent design works!
http://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/2007/02/25/
Bush funneling money to Al Qaeda-related groups [VIDEO]
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/video/48501/
Now that’s one way to fight terrorism! Sounds like little GW learned a lesson or two while his Daddy served under Reagan!
Regarding the “Jesus coffin” - from what I’ve heard in the MSM it sounds ridiculous, though Cameron was known as a stickler for detail and research while he was filming “Titanic”. But still…DNA? Come on? Compared to whose? And “Jesus”, “Mary” and “Joseph” weren’t exactly rare names back then. Now, I don’t happen to believe the bible myth that Jesus was the progeny of some supernatural incubus and his virgin victim, especially since the Bible makes such a big deal about how the Messiah had to be able to trace his lineage back through David and Abraham to Adam. Why would this heritage matter if he was not the actual son of a human father?
Just seems to me like everyone in Hollywood has got to get in on the money to be made pandering to religion.
In a sense, wouldn’t this actually be good if it could be proven that Jesus was buried. Bones and all. That he had a mother and a father (of this earth!), a son, and a wife. Let’s not forget the three other children he supposedly had after moving to the South of France. I think it would be fantastic. How would Christianity explain themselves and the past two thousand years. Major identity crisis! Obviously it’s a bunch of hype, as they’ve had these coffins in their possession for over twenty years. The Catholic church isn’t liking any of it; they’re likening it to The DaVinci Code!
I wonder why I had not heard of the discovery of these ossuaries before now. I have subscribed to both Archaeology and Biblical Archaeology Review magazines for many years.
I had read about the finding of the Caiphus family tomb, complete with ossuaries containing the bones of members of the Caiphus family, including the bones of the infamous Caiphus himself. I think that discovery was pretty fascinating, and the bones being those of the Caiphus of the bible is not disputed.
And I had read about the ossuary supposedly of James the brother of Jesus, which most scientists say in a hoax.
But I don’t remember ever reading anything about the discovery of this supposed Jesus family tomb and ossuaries. I wonder why not? The discovery was in 1980. I should have read SOMEthing about it in the years since.
At any rate, regarding the discussion about DNA and whether DNA analysis might be useful, I think it could be useful in determining which ossuary occupants were related to one another and which were not. The Mary Magdalene ossuary occupant would have to be found to have been no relation to the others except for the son.
The bones had been removed and buried according to custom soon after the ossuaries were found back in 1980. I don’t know if anyone knows where the bones were re-buried. Because the bones are no longer present, any DNA found would have to be from residue left behind.
According to Cameron and Jacobovic, the name on one of the boxes was Mariame (or something similar), which they said ends up translated as Mary Magdalene. They claimed that they asked statisticians to come up with the probability that people having those same names would be buried together, during the time Jesus lived, because they realized that the names Jesus, Josef, Mary, were among the most common of the time. The statisticians came back with high probability that the individuals were the ones associated with the biblical story.
I do think Cameron has a history of doing thorough research and is detail oriented when working on his films. While preparing for making Titanic, he had people go back to the original manufacturer’s drawings and plans, including the interior decorations, because he wanted the viewer to see both the exterior of the ship and the interior scenes exactly as they were. I’ve read they were successful. What we see is what people on the Titanic and near it saw.
There are people who don’t like Cameron too much. I don’t know why, though.
My biggest question about all this is simply why had I never heard of it before now?
Don,
I had heard of this but it wasn’t too well advertised until these movie makers got a hold of it. It was a rather insignificant find at the time. Archaeologists are like that. I have done archaelological digs with Mercyhurst University and you have to swear to secrecy to be let in on the location and results of a “dig.”
Check this out:
http://www.jesusfamilytomb.com/
Don,
Here is a blurb about the book:
The Jesus Family Tomb
The Discovery, the Investigation, and the Evidence That Could Change History
By Simcha Jacobovici, Charles Pellegrino
In 1980, workers at a Jerusalem construction site accidentally uncovered a cache of bone boxes from early Christian times. When reports about the crypt discovery leaked out 16 years later, the London Sunday Times headlined the story as “The Tomb That Dare Not Speak Its Name.” Now the full story will be told. In 2005, documentary filmmaker Simcha Jacobovici obtained permission to break through the apartment floor and reenter the tomb.
Don,
Here is a London Times News Story from 1996. Very interesting.
“THE TOMB THAT DARE NOT SPEAK IT’S NAME”
http://orion.huji.ac.il/orion/archives/1996a/msg00156.html
“The caskets ossuaries in which the bones of the dead were deposited in 1st-century Israel have lain on a warehouse shelf in a backwater of Jerusalem for 16 years. Israeli archeologists saw no significance in them and the tomb they were found in was obliterated.”
update on bible classes in Ft Smith Arkansas high schools.
The entire school board in a unanimous 7-0 vote upheld the Curriculum committes unanimous (3-0) vote to DENY petition to teach Bible classes an an elective course..(see below article)
Kudos to both boards!!!!
Board Reiterates Position On Class
Board Reiterates Position On Class
Tuesday, February 27, 2007 9:53 AM CST
By Amy Sherrill
TIMES RECORD • ASHERRILL@SWTIMES.COM
The Fort Smith School Board voted Monday to let the public know that it is not interested in establishing an elective Bible class based on materials from the National Council on Bible Curriculum in Public Schools.
The board voted 7-0 to accept the Curriculum Committee’s recommendation last week to reject the elective course.
In most cases, when a school board committee rejects an agenda item, it does not go to the full board for a vote, according to board member Deanie Mehl
However, “In light of the public interest in the issue,” Mehl said she wanted to make a motion that the entire board vote on the matter.
Board member Rick Wade seconded the motion, which passed unanimously. Before the board voted on whether to accept the committee’s recommendation to reject the Bible elective, Wade said he wanted to vote on the matter because he didn’t want the three committee members singled out anymore.
On Feb. 19, every seat in the boardroom at the Fort Smith Public Schools Service Center was filled, and several people stood against the walls to listen to the committee’s decision. Many of the more than 150 people in attendance supported teaching of the Bible in public schools.
Committee members Mehl, Jeannie Cole and Shannon Blatt voted 3-0 after more than an hour of discussion and audience member participation to reject the Bible course.
David Cordell, Richard Peer and Bill Freeman, who all have previous ties to the school district, requested Jan. 16 that the committee consider offering “The Bible in History and Literature” from a secular aspect as an elective course beginning in the 2007-08 school year. The committee tabled the matter and asked the group for more research.
“Some were calling for their resignation at the last meeting,” Wade said “That’s their First Amendment right. The committee ought to be commended. It was not an easy decision to make. I, for one, don’t want them to stand alone.”
Blatt asked why the matter was being brought to the full board when it was protocol. Wade said he was defending her and she didn’t need defending, that he was sorry. Blatt thanked him for the thought.
Cole said she voted Feb. 19 to reject the course because it was her understanding that the Bible could not be taught in public schools for the purpose of proselytizing. She added that was the reasoning the group gave for wanting to add the course to the curriculum.
“I do applaud the purpose,” Cole said. “I can understand their hearts. I agree with them specifically that the Bible can make a difference.”
Cole then told the audience that if there were students who wanted to have the Bible in their life to contact her and she and her husband would open up their house for Bible study.
Mehl, Blatt, Cole, Wade, Dr. David Hunton, Yvonne Keaton-Martin and Barbara Hathcock voted 7-0 to accept the committee’s recommendation to reject the Bible course based on the National Council’s curriculum
Wade added that he and other school board members would be looking at other options and exploring different curriculums other than the National Council’s curriculum that deal with the Bible or religions. “We’d be foolish not to listen to that many citizens,” Wade said.
Tony Tidwell, who told the Curriculum Committee last week they were not Christians because they didn’t vote for the Bible course, spoke again Monday night, but this time he began with an apology the committee members.
He then accused the committee of having its mind made up before the Feb. 19 meeting ever began. He went on to suggest that board members send a note home with students for their parents that would inform them that their beliefs may be changed while taking the Bible course.
Tidwell added that schools chose to keep English as its main language even when some students speak foreign languages. He said that we kept the English language in the schools and we should have kept the Bible in the schools.
After the meeting, Cordell said he and others were dissatisfied with the school board’s decision, but they were not discouraged.
“We’ll put our heads together and see what course of action we need to take down the road,” Cordell said.
In other business, the board voted 7-0 to accept the Properties Committee recommendation to allow Superintendent Benny Gooden to advertise for a construction manager for the Southside High School Activity Center project. The project is making progress, and many in-kind donations such as labor need to be utilized in a timely manner, Gooden said.
When the activity center at Northside was built, ERC Properties Inc. provided an in-kind donation of a project manager. Gooden said the Southside project could use the same support from a willing business, but he would need to advertise the position.
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Rick Wade, who is on the School Board, is City Prosecutor. He’s a good friend and colleague of mine. He is also on Board of St Edward’s ( Sister of mercy) Hospital, the largest (Catholic) hospital in this area.
He’s got an excellent mind.
It’s a good thing we have both Shannon Blatt and Rick Wade on the Board!
Yahweh,
I was wondering if the board was so unanimous against the measure, how did it get that far to begin with?
And this is a really good thing especially coming out of Arkansas.
Opening up one’s home for those interested in Bible study, or attending Sunday school, is only right. Even as an elective, this course is an absurdity. The suggestion of sending home a note warning that this course may change one’s beliefs is absolutely ridiculous. I would love to be the parent getting a note like that!!
One more Southern Baptist manifesto ideal - “Since we can’t get everyone to get their kids out of the public schools, take them over.”
Dale: a “citizen’s petition”, led by 3 fundies who used to be associated with Ft Smith Schools, in various capacities( teachers, admin, etc) was presented for consideration.
dale : i sent letter to editor praisng board and using your “at least 6 Commandments are Unconstitutional” argument against the fundies’ argument that “Bible is FOUNDATIONAL document of our nation”. The a letter has not yet run. But it will~~~~
Cool, Yahweh, let me know if you get a read on how the letter is generally accepted once it is printed.
I generally get numerous favorable comments in person, and a few written replies to the paper.
YahWeh,
I would fully expect that your opinion is respected as it is, as always, here !
If you have any misgivings on the commandment about adultery, and if you will check it out (your expertise is better than mine on this) you may find that, although there are a couple laws on the books in a couple states about adultry, it is one of those things that cannot be legislated against in a fre and egaltarian society. Each chooses their committment. Sometimes needs change.
If one would agree with my last post, then that leaves only three of the “ten comandments” that are constitutional. It would seem to this observer at that juncture, would say that as statistics go, the ten commandments are irrevelant. Period.
As I was rightfully taught, as far as I can see, the Power of our country is based upon the premise that we govern ourselves; from the people, for the people, and by the people. In this country, we govern by the people, and not by god, by god.
As some cultures declare their obedience and their morals from some god are written into their ancient myths, we wrote into our history that the people will rail against the religious transgessons from the past and start to do the “right thing” instead of being squashed into the mushy intolerant grips of religion.
A-hem…sorry if I got a little carried away there…… I didn’t really mean to say that if you are religious, that you are some kind of conditioned ape like charachter that mimics ancient belief systems, then you are the perfect example of the evolutionary study of humankind.
What I find puzzeling though is how can perfectly logical minds make up all these mythiological fairy tales of our existence.
These people actually teach this as truth.. you wanna bet?
I find it incomprehensible that any half-intelligent person beleives any MYTHS! But I am constantly astounded by the bright and articulate people who do.
Yah, even us “half-intelligent” people have a need for SOMETHING to believe in.
Also, not all of us who believe in the “myths” take them literally…many of us use them as examples of how to (and even how NOT to) behave.
Dale, thanks for the links to the early articles about the Jesus family tomb. Interesting stuff.
Yah weh, I’m delighted that your local school board voted as it did. And congratulations on your letter to the paper.
Regarding teaching Christianity (or any belief system) as truth, I was listening to the Coast To Coast late night radio call-in program Monday night, and they were talking about the Cameron documentary on the Jesus family tomb. There were a few guests, as well as callers, and a number of them were quick to dismiss the possibility that the ossuaries really did contain the remains of the biblical Jesus and his family, simply because “the bible tells us…”.
The bible also tells us Adam and Eve were real, were the first people on Earth, but somehow, without explaining how, Cain’s girlfriend showed up. And that the Jews had been enslaved by Egypt…and Moses came down from the mountain carrying stone slabs bearing commandments….but he got pissed at the people for paying homage to statues, so he dashed a tablet to pieces, and had to run back up the mountain to get a fresh copy.
Was there a stone Xerox copier up there?
Is that why there are only ten commandments? Weren’t there supposed to be a hundred?
The list goes on and on.
BTW, the Jesus Family Tomb documentary will air on Discovery channel on March 9th.
The documaentary, “The Dark Ages” will air on March 4th.
Don,
Moses was a piker with his ten commandments that he plagurized from King Hamurabbi of Babylon.
Hamurabbi wrote 206 commandments in his code. The hebrews lived in captivity in Babylon so it is no surprise that they would have adopted the Babylonian customes.
The Genesis story and the flood story were also “borrowed’ from pagan mythology; see “The Enumma Elish” and The epic tale of “Gigamesh.”
Sorry, it’s “Gilgamesh.”
Thanks Dale. Just last night while on my layover (I had to do a trip to JFK Airport instead of the usual Newark), I was talking to a co-worker who was also on his layover, and we talked about the various bible stories. I had remembered what you had posted about the Hamurabbi code and how it may have been the source of the Commandments, and he laughed heartily and agreed. And he’s a good Polish Catholic. He realizes that some people have a need to believe religious myths.
The first couple of weeks in February, my daughter (3rd grade) was required to do a project on a president. This entailed a poster, written and oral reports. One of the questions for the written and oral reports was “how do you think you can best serve America”. We discussed it (seriously). She decided that since Hillary would be the first female president, she wanted to be the second. Her teacher had a cow…When I went to the school to pick up the poster, I saw Bible verses on the bulletin boards in the hallway…I am Wiccan…I really do try to live and let live. I was astonished that even in small town Mississippi this was acceptable. Of course, I dare not make an issue of this or my daughter will be singled out…and I don’t want her to be another Tempest Smith. My daughter is also developmentally delayed and she is doing well in school this year…I don’t try to force my beliefs on her…however, I resent the ones that do. The only real solution for us is to move somewhere else…that is not possible at this time. Just thought I would vent.
Thanks Mary. I understand your wanting to vent.
Regarding what you might do about the situation at your daughter’s school, you might contact Americans United For Separation of Church and State, and explain your position, telling them you concerned about your daughter being singled out and being harassed. Maybe AU could quietly find some other parent who has a child in that school system who would be willing to serve as a plaintiff in a case that AU could pursue to get the school system to drop the bible crap.