DefCon Defends Evolution in the New York Times
Today’s New York Times features a piece by DefCon advisory board member Lawrence Krauss — discussing the recent end of the religious right’s control over the board of education in Kansas, yet also how depressing it is that this debate happens at all on our nation’s school boards.
OK, Let us do teach the controversy:
There are hundreds of thousands of pages in every scientific discipline that shows evidence for the theory of evolution.
There is not one scintilla of evidence to prove creationism or Intelligent design, or whatever they want to call it today.
There are no peer reviewed scientific papers to show any proof for creationism.
There are people who continue to believe that one ancient book of myths preempts all of our scientific research.
If there are mysteries about the origin of man, etc. they must remain mysteries for now. We shouldn’t make up myths to try to explain them.
That is the controversy.
Now, let’s study science.
“I have recently been criticized by some for strenuously objecting in print to what I believe are scientifically inappropriate attempts by some scientists to discredit the religious faith of others. However, the age of the earth, and the universe, is no more a matter of religious faith than is the question of whether or not the earth is flat.”
I’m sorry but I have to disagree with Lawrence Krauss here. At one time in history, it was a matter of religious faith to those who thought the earth was flat.
If they want to pick a fight here i’m siding with science and will do all I can to discredit religion…
I was born in England where there is not a separation of church and state, and I was taught religious knowledge as well as science and I will always remember my religious knowledge teacher as I asked him the question on one hand we are taught we come from apes and the other hand you teach us God made us, his answer was you are taught both and it is up to you to decide, so my feeling is that Children should be taught science by scientists and maybe they are taught religion by their parents but the more information children are given the better off they will be in their future. I feel school is a place where children learn as much as they can about true scientist, not religious science, but science as we now know about it. Religion is not up to the school’s to teach in this country as there is still and I hope continue to be separation of church and state. Religion should be something they learn or not learn from their parents.
It’s important to keep in the national spotlight the battle for high standards in science education.
We live at a time when throughout the republic scientific standards in general–the standards of verifiability and reason themselves–are under attack: evolution is false, condoms don’t help prevent STDs, abortions cause breast cancer, the earth isn’t warming, and Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction become widely believed lies because perfidious myth-makers shout our their wishful thinking at the top of their lungs, manipulatively using politics to make millions of voters feel that they are also were invested in seeing these “truths” more widely accepted. The politicizing of veracity is a horrific reality spreading like a virus across the country. Far too many Americans are less inclined to promote a myth, like those mentioned above, because it is true than because if it is accepted their side “wins.” That issues relating to clearly verifiable realities are decided more on effective spin and “messaging” than substance should alarm every true patriot. A strong republic can NOT be built upon an ill-informed electorate.
I am certainly glad that the Times ran Lawrence Krauss’ commentary. The Times at least today and regarding the issue of science education standards showed it will not be a part of the relentless dumbing-down of America.
Krauss states - “This is how we distinguish theories that work, like evolution or gravitation.”
Why do scientist continue to push the theory of evolution as a verifiable hypotheses that must dominate in our science classes in school when the evidence is fraught with guesswork, fanciful thought and outright error?
Dale,
Here are a few points to consider regarding Macro Evolution (the idea that all life forms come from an original life form which was generated from non-living matter).
There are no transitional links and intermediate forms in either the fossil record or the modern world. Therefore, there is no actual evidence that evolution has occurred either in the past or the present.
Natural selection (the supposed evolution mechanism, along with mutations) is incapable of advancing an organism to a “higher-order”.
Although evolutionists state that life resulted from non-life, matter resulted from nothing, and humans resulted from animals, each of these is an impossibility of science and the natural world.
The supposed hominids (creatures in-between ape and human that evolutionists believe used to exist) bones and skull record used by evolutionists often consists of `finds’ which are thoroughly unrevealing and inconsistent. They are neither clear nor conclusive even though evolutionists present them as if they were.
Nine of the twelve popularly supposed hominids are actually extinct apes/ monkeys and not part human at all.
The final three supposed hominids put forth by evolutionists are actually modern human beings and not part monkey/ ape at all. Therefore, all twelve of the supposed hominids can be explained as being either fully monkey/ ape or fully modern human but not as something in between.
Natural selection can be seen to have insurmountable social and practical inconsistencies.
Natural selection has severe logical inconsistencies.
The rock strata finds (layers of buried fossils) are better explained by a universal flood than by evolution.
Dale - evolution is not a fact. Far from it. The chances are better that a tornado will hit a junkyard in Kansas and from the chaos a perfectly operating Boeing 747 will come into existence.
There is no evidence whatsoever of a universal flood.
There is the KT boundry which is a definitive point where an extinction occured, probably from a meteorite hit.
But there is no way the KT boundry can be confused with a flood.
Jumper, why does religion continue to intrude on science when it has done nothing but get in the way of human progress throughout the ages? Are you suggesting we go back to the dark ages?
I think it’s embarrassing that this country is still debating the validity of the theory of evolution. We’ve become a nation of freaking morons who still believe in Adam and Eve…
I might rebut your statements, Jumper, if I could control my laughter…
You better watch out, Jumper, because my big brother, John McGinn is back and he’s checking to see who’s trying to take a scientific advantage of me, a mere student of philosophy and religious history.
I suspect he will kick your non-scientific butt.
Dearest Mark,
You have spouted this drivel often enough, and been rebutted every time, that I am not truly surprised at your current posting. However, it never ceases to amaze me that you still continue in your preferred state of complete Denial. You have been continually challenged to provide empirical evidence for your assertions, and have so far offered only the feeblest of attempts at meeting our challenges.
You have emabarrased yourself beyond measure. Apparently, you believe that blind assertion holds the same weight as independently verifiable empirical evidence; and, conversely, that independently verifiable empirical evidence means nothing at all. Why do you insist on this? You must know that you do nothing but make yourself look like an idiot. But then, that may be your ultimate goal, knowing that, by our continually pointing out the weaknesses of your thinking, we make ourselves out to be unfeeling automatons who do nothing but spout scientific “propaganda” and seek to debase all human interest in religion. You should be ashamed of yourself.
But naturally, you never will be. You have so fully deluded yourself in this matter, and I am sure many other matters as well, and have suceeded in continually provoking us to dignify your delusions with our attempts to educate you. I offically choose to no longer give you that satisfaction.
Goodbye, Mr. Jumper. This is the last response I will direct to you.
Evolution and Special Creation (1880?)
by Charles Watts
“TAKING a retrospective view of the dark and unenlightened past, when the mighty forces of nature were almost entirely hidden from the human gaze; contemplating the sad spectacle of our forefathers being sunken in gross superstition, ere the light of to-day had arisen above the horizon of mental ignorance, and contrasting the then limitation of knowledge with the extensive educational acquirements now existing, what a pleasing contrast the intellectual advancement presents to the modern observer! Recognizing the glories of nature, and finding ourselves possessed of an amazing amount of information respecting the laws of nature and the phenomena with which these laws are connected — such information being for ages unknown to the great masses of the people — we are prompted to inquire what has produced this marvelous transformation, and to what agency we are indebted for this grand and stupendous revolution of the nineteenth century. Whatever may be the reply of the theologian, whose intellect is too often clouded with dreamy imaginations, the answer of the patient and unfettered student of nature will be that it is to science we owe the magic power which has substituted for the dense darkness of the past the brilliant light of the present.”
This free thinker was ahead of his time…
Mark,
Where do you get this crap? After thinking you had some resemblance of reason you pull out this old worn out creationists garbage? What gives? You surely are not serious are you?
I am not even going to waste my time to reply to your copy and paste crap (see where he got this junk here).
Mark do you know that taking someone’s stuff without permission is plagiarism, a form of stealing? And posting that stuff as if it was your own, is a form of deception, aka lying?
“Dale - evolution is not a fact. Far from it. The chances are better that a tornado will hit a junkyard in Kansas and from the chaos a perfectly operating Boeing 747 will come into existence.”
This old silly analogy is so worn out its quite sad. The fallacies of this analogy are the following:
1. Junkyard parts have no method of reproduction nor inheritance.
2. A tornado in a junkyard has no selective process even closely akin to natural selection.
Of course I doubt the fact that one’s analogy is totally destroyed will stop creationists from continuing to act like its valid. What happened to integrity in this world?
Damn Stephanie, you hit Jumper like he was a hanging curve ball.
I have not yet begun to get angry…
What I keep finding entertaining about the whole Creationism/ID BS is that it isn’t about Evolution vs Other Theories, it’s Evolution vs Christian Mythology…PERIOD. If you want to Entertain yourself, support ANY non-Christian Creation Myth vs Evolution. ID-folk really Hate it when you do that because they’ve pretended that their Beleif is not religion-specific…
Peace,
Pat
There are theories of evolution to be sure, but evolution itself is a demonstrable fact!
Ahhhh, Stephanie, you once jumped on me for being so critical of these ignorant sentinels of creationism.
I detect that you are now becoming frustrated with the BS too. It’s ok.
Jan,
Thank you very much.
Jumper,
You are busted. Have been busted. Will be busted. Will be busted into the future.
My question to you is what is actually sustaining your ilogical belief system.
It’s ok to think for yourself. Try it. Just put away your cultural conditioned ideas and open your mind for just a second.
You sound like a little parrot repeating the crap that the priestcraft indocrinate their followers to repeat. You are a sad, sad piece of work, in that you have never actualy made a salient point of your own. It is readily apparent that you have submitted yourself to belief systems that you have never thought through for yourself..
I hope you are happy with perpetuating your ancient mythologies. I am realy getting tired of it.
But, you do serve a useful purpose because of all the people that have seen what you have said, and they are acutely aware that you are a mere pawn in your religious indoctrinization.
Please keep on with your irrational arguments because our society is less inclined every day to subscribe to your superstitious and irrational belief systems.
We need people like you to keep publishing this crap so we know it is not merely some ignorant religionists that is propogating these beliefs, it is rather intelligent people trapped intheir bigoted belief systems trying to enlist the ignorant to buy in to it.
You will have no success here and you have never made a salient point. Keep trying if you must., but you have continually been smacked down. You will continue to be embarased by your primitive belief system. You are a laughing stock, completely not credible to any rational person.
I hope that you continue in you ways because it only butresses the cause of reason versus your cause of believing in supernatural forces. You are busted. Out of here. You make no sense. You are a creature of your irrational belief system.
Mark jumper MUST be a “mole’ planted here to keep the arguments lively: no one with an ounce of intellect vs a mega ton of theistic dogma in their cranium could continue to spout this mindless drivel.
He’s been through his same talking points on many threads and has been pummeled by posters refuting his claims and assertions. He’s been given facts, links to facts, and has had to watch his lies evaporate in the face of lively, rational, substantiated and corraoborated reasoning. It’s tough to beat 150 years of empircal data which has been collected, organized, analyzed and tested by every skeptic imaginable, both religious and non-religious. Yet he keeps trying.
The empty can rattles the most.
I said the same exact thing a couple months ago. He is a plant.
My sense is that these religeous zealots are so scared that the truth about evolution vs. creation crap will one day soon be realized by their flocks that have so blindly followed them over century upon century. However, in the last century or so, scientific evidence of evolution has become so clear it’s driving them into a frenzy if you will.
Yes, and they are trying so hard that their true intentions will be unveiled. Their mask of religiositity will be stripped away.
Their hunger for power and their desire to keep their followers ignorant will be exposed. It kinda reminds me of the French Revolution. With the exception that we will not behead Dobson, et al. We will merely marginalize them to the point where they will become non personna grata. As it should be.
Home from work. Wow.
Lets see - busted, irrational, laughing stock, delusions, feeblest of attempts, blind assertion, primitive, irrational, mindless drivel, etc, etc. Oh my, you’ve hurt my feelings so badly. I don’t know if I can cope. All this pressure from the right-minded ones. (he, he, he)
Stephanie, unlike you I won’t give up my faith. Your slight intellect does not impress me. Like the physical, it is a vapor in the wind, here today and gone tomorrow. Think about YOUR Denial of that which matters most in the eternal perspective. BTW, are you going to let a single post debasing evolution break up our happy relationship? You are soooo shallow. I thought we really had something going.
Dale, a small faith-related question - You probably have a painting in your home. How do you know their was a painter? Is it irrational to believe that their was a painter?
John, so all 9 points are false?
I hope to hell that the informed people of this great country of ours will not get caught up in the lies of these snake oil salesmen.
Mark,
Your points are baseless and without any rational reason. You are trapped in your belief system.
Jumper,
You would love to engage me in one of your pointless and illogical arguments, as you always do. But, it’s not going to happen. You are a pathetic, unrealistic, agent of unreason that has continued to stifle the advancement of humankind over all these centuries. You have been exposed on numerous occasions and if you want to continue to embarass yourself, well, go ahead.
If you want to align yourself with Dobson, Falwell, Robertson, and etc., then I am totally gratified that you do so align yourself. You only continue to identify yourself as a bigoted, culturally conditioned individual person who has not the least interst in expressing yourself as a autonomous individual. Sorry that you have nto get hooked up to your guy in the sky god comforting myth that you like so much. You are so pitifull. You have so much potential, it’s so sad that you cannot think for yourself.
I am a scientist, (Biologist, microbiologist) who attends my church each week and teaches religion regularly to grade school, middle school and high-school students. The Bible chronicles the development of the soul “Spirit” of the human and is fully correct in what it explains. The science chronicles the development of the body of the human, it is fully correct in what it explains. Humans have two distinct and separate natures from two separate and distinct sources, studied by separate and distinct disciplines, there is no conflict.
Thank God Kansas is finally being bent into the enlightenment of the modern world and that their students have the chance now to learn the difference between Science and Religion as parallel and not intersecting disciplines. Our whole country has been the laughing stock of enlightened folks the world over because of this nonsense, they can not believe the whole thing isn’t a joke. What is more important is that a real science, and a real religion can now be taught in Kansas so those students will be able to standup with their colleges and compete in the world market for educational opportunity and jobs.
Dale / Alex - Faith in God takes a person well beyond mere logic and reason. I think you need to consider opening your mind and freeing yourself. I do find myself “trapped” in any sense, quite the contrary, my faith in God is of my own accord.
Alex, keep shaking that empty can of evolutionary fundamentalist dogma - maybe someone will take notice of your plight.
Dale,
Trust me when I say that I do not agree 100% with Dobson, Falwell and Roberston. Dobson’s ministry is to families, Falwell is a preacher first, educator second and Robertston is a Christian politician with TV show.
I raised my kids without any help from Dobson. I’ve never paid much attention to Robertson and his 700 Club (what a stupid name).
Falwell is another matter - He is a preacher of the New Testament gospel, very well grounded in the Christian faith and can endure any measure of heat in a debate and win. Jerry Falwell and Albert Mohler are two of the best when it comes to sharing the Christian viewpoint in a disbelieving world. My hat is off to these guys.
I think for myself everyday of the week. Alzheimers hasn’t hit me yet.
Oops! I’m still raising my kids (one in college, one high school junior, one sixth grader).
Erika,
Welcome to Defcon.
You said “The science chronicles the development of the body of the human, it is fully correct in what it explains.”
Genesis 1:27 speaks of God’s creation of man and woman in His image. How does science chronicle this event?
Jerry Falwell couldn’t even win a debate with Larry Flynt.That’s a FACT—- not DOGMA as espoused by the former.
Markjumper; if You want to show a MODICUM of intellect….just acknowledge that yours and ALL
religion is…. MERELY belief….only that and nothing more…
Then we will be more likely to “humor you” like we do other children frightened by make BELIEVE boogey
men!
“John, so all 9 points are false?”
Yes.
erika morgan,
I am blessed with a fairly sensitive bullshit detector and you are not passing the sniff test.
If you are, in fact, a scientist, you understand the scientific method.
You say:
“The Bible chronicles the development of the soul “Spirit” of the human and is fully correct in what it explains.”
Obviously, you discard everything you ever learned to make a statement like that. But, if not, what is your proof for your belief that humans have a “soul/spirit?” Also, I know scientists and I have never heard one claim that the bible is “fully correct.” A Scientist would not even speak in those elementary terms. I know scientists. You are not a scientist.
You do make some sense when you say: ” Our whole country has been the laughing stock of enlightened folks the world over because of this nonsense, they can not believe the whole thing isn’t a joke.”
You then lose me when you say: “What is more important is that a real science, and a real religion can now be taught in Kansas……”
The citizens voted out the ignoramuses that wanted to teach ID in the schools. They did the same in Dover, PA last year. They are not going to be teaching religion in their schools, honey, let alone “real religion.” Just what the hell do you consider “real religion?” Plus, it is unconstitutional to teach religion in a public school.
What method did you use to test the hypothesis that there is a soul, and what were the results?
You people that come around posing as professionals to prop up your credibility is just hideous behaviour.
You should be ashamed of yourself, you pitiful imposter.
Joel rocks…….
Erika morgan: I can”scientifically” assure you that your “soul/spirit” will be realized exactly as follows; your “soul/spirit”, like your afterlife, will be IDENTICAL to your “pre-life” experience; so obviously, you will NOT be disappointed when your errant notions don’t come to fruition, because you will experence such to the EXACT extent you experienced your “pre-life”.
Please, in an essay of 100,000 words or LESS describe in detail your pre-life.AFTER THAT i WILL BE MORE THAN WILLING TO ENTERTAIN YOUR NOTIONS OF “SPIRIT/SOUL” AFTERLIFE.
i SUSPECT YOUR ESSAY TO BE AS FOLLOWS:
“………”(FIN)
dale, IseFire has got you on the record.
Clark,
Cool! Thanks for poiting that out!
No problem.
Joel - Larry Flynt the pornographer has something over on Jerry Falwell. What a hoot. If you want to show a MODICUM of intellect, at least be honest.
John - The statistical probabilities encountered when examining evolution (especially point number 2) show its logical improbability.
Dale, I noticed the other website didn’t post a copy of your two-post tirade regarding Dobson. You really have a unusually vehement view of Dobson - “Make no mystake that this meglomaniac perverted bastard will come after you too.” This is so unlike you. Did you have a bad day?
Mark,
“John - The statistical probabilities encountered when examining evolution (especially point number 2) show its logical improbability.”
Please enlighten me to these “statistical probabilities” you mention. I’m all ears.
Mark,
How do you feel like it man. It’s the same old rhetoric. Science is not a democracy. If you’re not an expert then your opinion doesn’t count. You have no credibility. However, if you would start providing links for each assertion you make, then I (as well as the others here) will be happy to refute it - with expert references. Anything short of that proves you have some kind of emotional issues going on. Since I am tired of repeating myself and giving you expert references that refutes your ALL of your bullshit assertions, I will only respond to you if you can back your shit up.
I would put Larry Flynt and Jerry Falwell in the same league. They’re both dishing out shit to their respective flock of sheep…
Mark, Mark, mark, mark, mark………mark.
Man ohman oh man oh man…..I keep wondering why do you do what you do. why, why, why…..why.
Perhaps you like being a human punching bag. Perhaps you think you are going to convert someone.
Perhaps you do what you do as penance for your guilt ridden, sinful nature and so your guy in the sky will think you are doing good…..whatever………
The only thing that I can think of- Persecution complex. I had some personal experience with a counterpart of mine one time. It can get ugly; more than you know. You should be cautionary about conciously saying things that you know others will beat you up over. This behaviour can be very destructive.
perhaps you have something else you could be doing….a bit more constructive and…….realistic. I think I hear them calling you from bible school. Please be careful.
Dale,
I’m not the one who wrote the tirade. You wrote it. What has Dobson done to you or another person to deserve such an attack? Come on man, be reasonable.
We can all agree or disagree on stuff without getting so vicious and angry. Like I said, I find you rational and reasonable for the most part, except for total disbelief in God. You and I are diametrically opposed in this regard.
“guy in the sky” - thats a good one.
Mark,
you say:
“You really have a unusually vehement view of Dobson -”
Oh my, a rational question from the poor persecuted boy from Texas.
OK.
It is my opinion that Dobson is perpetrating an agenda of hate and bigotry against gays. All clinical evidedence refutes his teachings. The harm that he continues to inflict is incalculable. He uses his PhD to hold sway over the ignorant. He is a high classed, redneck, homophobe.
Even the Jesus of your bible never condemns gays, all the while condoning slavery and the subjugation of women.
I continually feel a sadness for my fellow humans who continue to try to tell a segment of our society that they are corrupted, even as they continue to be law abiding, caring, and loving citizens of our republic.
The homophobic senator from PA, Rick Santorum, actually employs gays on his team much the same as Mel Gibson employs Jews on his team. They do this to try to assuage their guilt for their intolerance and to produce a smokescreen for their intolerance. It is a common political ploy: albeit a sophomoric, transparent, attempt, at best.
In conclusion, and as the definitive answer to your question, I do, in fact hold Dobson in contempt because I know that he knows better, but he continues to capitalize (make money) on his homophobic and intolerant beliefs.
The people of this country deserve beter than him, by far.
Mark: You ignorant misguided slug(haha-how’s hat for beginning with an ad hominen attack?.I led-in that ay in jest referring to old Sat Night live skit with Chevy Chase /Jane Curtin)
Now to my real point: Flynt already bested Falwell in a lawsuit Falwell ultimately lost after he sued Flynt for a parody in which Flynt wrote that Falweel lost his virginty to his drunken mother in an outhouse.
I would rather have Flynt’s VULGAR parodies and nude images than Falwell”s pompous, self-righteous bloviating about religious fairy tales from which his diety will dispense salvation to the (truly deluded) flock of mindless TRUE believers.
Joel,
You said - “I would rather have Flynt’s VULGAR parodies…..”
A very revealing character reference.
Mark,
Since you have not responded to my last post I shall go forward on the assumption that you now totally agree with me about Dobson.
I can basically agree with Joel because Flynt (who I personally do not like) is honest and secular about his intentions..
Falwel, on the other hand uses the bible to perpetuate hate and bigotry. I find that using the bible to justify anything, is insincere and close minded at best.
Mark when you are going to enlighten me about those improbable statistics?
Dale,
Of course I don’t agree with you regarding Dobson. Your view is way off the scale, purely personal speculation on your part. Your characterization of Dobson is frankly…….ludicrous. Let see, how did you say it - “when your toime comes he will come after you too. Make no mystake that this meglomaniac perverted bastard will come after you too.”
Is he coming after me?
The instant your views do not agree with his, he will come after you.
If you totally agree with him then you may apply everything I said about him to yourself.
Most of what I said is documented, especially concerning his upbringing and viwes about gays.
Markjumper: You say , “a very revealing character reference.”.If that’s an attempt to impugn or malign my character or intellctual integrity let me tell you BUB,: I’ll match the polarity of my “character compass against any sop, real or imagined( as in your diety)you might choose to set in my opposition.
I don’t rely upon fable, myths and apocraphal stories to advance positions.Rather I let logic and reason ber my polestar in coming to decisions and making conclusions.
I am neither a ‘theist” nor and “atheist”.Rather I am, if I had to pigeon-hole myself, a “meta-theist”;that is, I have used REASON to EVOLVE away from delusional belief systems of ALL stripes; all earth-borne, earth-bound theisms are merely BELIEFS—Only that and nothing more. They are no more substantial than a shadow .
You and your ILK may choose to continue to ne guided by delusional shadows.I on the other hand will stick to matters of REALITY and substance: logic, reason in scientific inquiry and analysis.
So bring on your PUNKS:Falwell, Robertson, Dobson, Jesus, Moses, Allah…etc ad infinitum…..and other such ephemera!
Joel,
I love your subdued and inclusive remarks. Please continue in your most exsquisite, nurturing atitude towards these FREAKING IGNORANT BASTARDS. He he. Just kidding.
Please remember that some people feel that jesus is their savior. oK COOL. One guy died for us a couple thousand years ago. Cool, if that is their belief.
But, what about the hundreds of thousand of kids that gave up thier lives so we could sit here so smugly arguing this point of contention. I will put my money on all those boys who laid down their lives rather than that one guy who maybe, and maybe not, got hung on a tree two thousand years ago. Back then, they hung people all the time. OHHHH you christians would love to return to that.
I get sick to my stomach over the way these religionists marginalize the heroic efforts of the men that have kept us free.
I’ll put my money on you who will defend our right to freedom every time. Most people do not understand how many American kids sacrificed themselves to the cause of freedom. It is pathetic that all those boys (the average age of WW2 vets was 18 years of age) have never recieved the credit they deserved because religious nut cases want to give all the credit to a god that supports their position. If there was a hell, I would relegte it to those who are so ignorant as to give the credit to some divinity.
Joel, you are young and you must be tolerant, even indifferent, to the indescretions of these bigots.
So, instead of you calling them all these names and being intolerant of them, send them over to me and… I will kick the shit out of their stupid ignorant asses. Then you can remain the voice of reason into the future.
Because I am old and I need you kids to carry on the cause of……..Freedom.
Ok Dale….i’ll slide the slime balls your way so you can give them a full measure of justice….BUT i’M NOT AS WET BEHIND THE EARS AS YOU MIGHT THINK…(oops inadvertent cap lock)
Joel,
Hey, believe me, they will never extend the tolerance to us that we extand to them, and I do respect your thoughts on this, and, I never thought for a minute that you are wet behind the ears!!!!
Take them on and smack them down.
I am right behind you.
Trust me on this.
Go boy!
You jump on them with both feet and I will be right here with you.
Joel,
You are cracking me up here……You better continue to challenge all authoruty …don’t quit…ever….
Hey Dale : i just found two statements that are perfect to throw back at Theists such as Markjumper and his Ilk:
“Once you understand why YOU renounce all other possible dieties, you wil then understand why I renounce yours.”
and
“I just THINK there is ONE LESS diety than YOU BELIEVE in.”
Joel,
What a rich life you must lead, feasting with your metatheistic, demi-god’s; logic and reason. Do you pray to them? Are they evolving to fit your humanistic theology?
Joel, I can see the reality of your belief - your god is you.
Bridge jumper:”meta-theistic demi-gods”? What blow hole did you dream that up from.
You seem to have failed to mature to full self-awareness because you are scared or brain-washed into obeisance to “BELIEF”.
You need to understand that I , you , we ALL are born to mature into FULLY AUTONOMOUS beings not dependent upon transcendent sky-kings or other earth -borne notions of dieties ; some of us complete that process; others die before acheiving such; while still others adopt a detour, a default from reason to BELIEF.
Prayer? prayer? what a silly earthling concept.
My “creator” does not require prayer.My “creator” does not require BELIEF. So sad and pathetic that your silly ,petty, puny, puerile diety does….or you delusionally imagine “HE” does.
Settle down you guys before I come back there and then you’ll be sorry.
Come on Mark Jumper where are these statistics you talk of? Or was this just another one of your blatant assertions without evidence acts?
Joel,
When the veneer is pulled back, its obvious that your god is you. Your not alone, self-centered pride affects most humans.
Joel, the Christian way is a very narrow gate and few enter into it. Being a Christian, per the words of Jesus, will get you hated, despised and killed in this world. You must die to self to a be a true Christian. You must pick up your cross, daily. The way of the cross is foolishness to the lost and therefore, your words are no surprise to me.
Hmmmmm, I’m definitely seeing a persecution complex here.
I guess there are no true Christians in America then? Unless one counts Fred Phelps or David Koresh eh?
The reconstructionists are the only true christians.
John,
There are plenty of true, born-again Christians in America and there are a substantially larger number of false, psuedo-Christians.
Jesus said:
Matthew 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Dale,
Perhaps some of the reconstructionist are Christians and some are not. BTW, persecution (which we do not see in America) should be no surprise to a Christian. We see a little discrimination for being a Christian, but not true persecution.
Mark you said, “Being a Christian, per the words of Jesus, will get you hated, despised and killed in this world. “, this hardly describe Amercian Christians of any form. Let’s see there are churches on every street corner, huge numbers of people, movies, books, whole TV and radio stations dedicated to the love of Christians, the majority if not all politicians support them and so on. Either Jesus was lying or there are no true Christians in America except for Fred Phelps, David Koresh, et al.
Now when are you going to provide those statistics?
“We see a little discrimination for being a Christian, but not true persecution.”
LOL, this statement kills me. Let’s see you are the favored religion of the majority of the people of this nation, including most of our politicians. You have churches, radio stations, TV stations, books, publishers, the list goes on. And you are being “discriminated” against? Oh crap, I think I just threw up in my mouth a little after reading that. That’s hilarious mark. good stuff.
Hold on I got it, discrimination in your view means
1. You can’t use the government to force your religion upon everyone else.
2. There are people who disagree with your beliefs, debate your arguments, etc.
3. You don’t get to exclusively teach your mythology as science in public schools.
4. Politicians many times have to actually represent all of their constituents not just the Christian ones and can’t go around telling their non-Christian constituents they are going to hell.
LOL, Mark you are the quite clown, when I’m going to get those statistics damn it?
Mr Jumper,
Keep up your good work and we must use the doctrine of religious liberty to gain independence for Christian schools until we train up a generation of people who know that there is no religious neutrality, no neutral law, no neutral education, and no neutral civil government. Then they will get busy in constructing a Bible-based social, political and religious order which finally denies the religious liberty of the enemies of God.
God bless you
Mr. Jumper,
Only good Christian men like you deserve to rule American society.
Clark,
People like Mark Jumper should be ruling this country because he doesn’t use logic. Because God is not subject to time, we cannot use logic to understand Him. Logic is a progression of thought that man uses because of the finitude of his mind. Logic is a sequence of steps to reach a conclusion. Man uses logic because his mind and his knowledge are limited. We cannot theorize such a chronological thought process in God. Man thinks; God knows and determines because He is infinite and eternal. He is not merely wise; He is Wisdom. God does not possess truth; He is Truth.
John McGinn and that dale are definitely going to burn in hell.
God Bless You
This is too easy. Sorry if I’m repeating something from above, but it’s a heck of a lot to trudge through. Anyway, debugging some of Jumper’s illogic:
MJ: “There are no transitional links and intermediate forms in either the fossil record or the modern world. Therefore, there is no actual evidence that evolution has occurred either in the past or the present.”
Really? Have you published a paper on the subject in a peer reviewed scientific journal on the topic? How was it received by the community?
1) Read the Origin of Species (Darwin 1859) for the first work on transitional forms, what they will look like, where they fit in, their numbers, frequency in the fossil record.
2) Here is a brief list of some notable transitional forms: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html
3) Look into hybrid offspring of species and mongrel offspring of varieties. Where exactly do you draw the lines between species, variety, individual, mutant, etc.
4) Do some research on Nylon and frame shifting mutations. There is a laboratory repeatable mutation in a bacterial carbohydrate digestion enzyme that enables the bacteria to metabolize the synthetic, man made fiber, Nylon.
5) Man’s influence on domestic breeds is unquestionable. This is called evolution by artificial selection. The only difference between this and natural selection is that we (unwittingly) acted on only a few select traits that we wanted to modify. Natural Selection is free to work with all traits simultaneously or severally.
6) Antibiotic resistant strains exist and are a growing problem.
MJ: “Natural selection (the supposed evolution mechanism, along with mutations) is incapable of advancing an organism to a “higher-order”.”
1) On what basis is this statement made, in what way is this mechanism incapable? What mechanism then, is capable? (If you answer it’s too complex for me to understand so it must be magic, I’ll assume you’re wrong.)
MJ: “Although evolutionists state that life resulted from non-life, matter resulted from nothing, and humans resulted from animals, each of these is an impossibility of science and the natural world.”
1) On what basis is this statement made? Who ever said that matter resulted from nothing? No scientist worth his bit bucket would make any claim as to what the universe was like before the first Plank time scale had occurred. This gives the supernatural around 10^-43 seconds before everything settled down into the natural mechanical physical laws to which we are subject.
2) Give me a definition of life vs nonlife that is consistent.
3) Humans are animals.
4) Artificial Life is created in computer simulations, as well as lab benches, daily. The idea that the molecules of living things were somehow ‘touched’ or different from those of nonliving matter was thrown out after the first urea molecules were synthesized in the lab. Look up RNA World. It’s repeatable, simple, artificial life in a tube (I think 14 bases is still the simplest replicator to ever spontaneously spring to life under observation), and can be made from entirely synthetic components. RNA is a major structural and functional (computationally and chemically) component of our cells.
MJ: “The supposed hominids (creatures in-between ape and human….”
1) Yikes. Once again, take a course or read a textbook on the subject. I’m sure that taxonomists would be mildly amused by your ‘reclassifications’ of our lineage and close ancestors. Here’s a brief overview of hominids: http://cogweb.ucla.edu/ep/Paleoanthropology.html
MJ: “Natural selection can be seen to have insurmountable social and practical inconsistencies.”
1) What do social concerns have to do with the accuracy of a theory? If there are social problems with understanding of the facts of the world around us, then we’d better adapt and deal with them instead of hiding our heads in the sand and spouting off nonsensical, unsupported beliefs.
MJ: “Natural selection has severe logical inconsistencies.”
1) A shark once told a dolphin he had fins. The dolphin laughed and told him not to worry, they were his legs, and they only looked like fins.
MJ: “The rock strata finds (layers of buried fossils) are better explained by a universal flood than by evolution.”
1) Take a basic, high school level geology course or read a textbook on the subject. Repeat you’re assertion when you have published papers on the topic in peer reviewed scientific journals.
MJ: “Dale - evolution is not a fact. Far from it. The chances are better that a tornado will hit a junkyard in Kansas and from the chaos a perfectly operating Boeing 747 will come into existence.”
1) Cute, trite, old 747 argument. Methinks it is like a weasel. Use of this argument clearly demonstrates a lack of understanding of the mechanisms of evolution by natural selection. These mechanisms operate much more like a factory specifically designed to build 747s and variations on the theme. Evolution by natural selection is not a random, chance driven process. It is an iterative process. Calculating chances based on single step selection is pitifully naive. Try using cumulative selection next time.
Mark Jumper wrote: “There are plenty of true, born-again Christians in America and there are a substantially larger number of false, psuedo-Christians.”
What absolute hubris! I’ve been following this thread, and, as Popeye would say – that’s all I can stand, because I can’t stand no more!
Jumper, you are a pompous, arrogant, holier-than-thou clown. Please enlighten me; specifically which type of Christians do you consider to be false Christians? I’m Roman Catholic and I actively participate in my faith, and I have no conflict whatsoever with the Theory of Evolution as applied to the biological sciences.
I got news for you: in this country alone, there are well over 10,000 different Christian denominations and sects, and all have varying ideas about the Bible and how to interpret scripture, and most mainstream faiths do not see science and religion as mutually exclusive. Also, there are at least three different editions of the Bible. Most Protestant denominations use the King James Version, while the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches do not.
Mark Jumper also wrote: “BTW, persecution (which we do not see in America) should be no surprise to a Christian. We see a little discrimination for being a Christian, but not true persecution.”
There is no widespread discrimination or persecution of Christians anywhere in this country; you’ve been listening to O’Reilly and Hannity too much. I think that what we are finally seeing are Americans who respect the Constitution along with the Courts finally bitch-slapping you uppity holy rollers who not only wear your crucifixes on your sleeves, but also insist that the government endorse and enforce your own narrow interpretations of scripture.
By so many of their own statements, the far-right religious conservatives take it as divinely certain that other people’s religious views are inferior. Well, one reaps what one sows, so when you far-right religious conservatives show your contempt of opposing views (both religious and constitutionally) – guess what; contempt for your own religious views is returned. Unfortunately, history has been bloodied by the consequences, as millions of Jews, Muslims, atheists, and other Christians have been subjugated, tortured, and slaughtered in the name of the different interpretations of “God”.
To people like Jumper and “E-lad”, it is not enough to have faith, or to have such a faith that provides a personal moral compass, or to regularly attend church services and give generously to the church. It goes way beyond that. You folks demand that everyone else must admit that your way is the right way and the only way, and no one else’s faith or values matter, and that the government needs to legislate accordingly.
E-Lad,
Thanks for kind words. God created man, in His image, and gave us the capacity, in varying degrees, to think, reason and act. This brings about a special responsibility, unique to man. We will all be held accountable for our thoughts and actions. I rarely use scripture at DefCon because its like throwing pearls to swine. Many of the posters can’t even acknowledge the historical fact that Jesus of Nazareth walked the earth, let alone grasp an infinite, eternal and triune God.
We live in a special place, the United States of America. It is a Constitutional Republic established by God-fearing men who had tremendous foresight. It will never be a theocracy. Even devout Christians do not want it to become a theocracy. The Kingdom of God exists in the hearts of men. More later.
Bridgejumper and e-lad: stick your punk jesus and his cross up eachother’s ARSE!,,,,and be gone!
Joel,
Your character is showing, again.
bridgejumper;stick jesus&his cross up your ARSE….if there’s room there aliong with your head…which seems to be firmed affixed there.
If you insist upon REPEATING fable, make-believe, I’ll keep telling you to put it where it belongs.
If you have nothing NEW to add other than MINDLESS DRIVEL, I’ll respond with equally puerile taunts!
“firmly affixed”
Tony,
Read the scriptures I posted. They attest to what I said - there are false and true Christians. Jesus said it himself. Those are His words. They are not my words. Do you understand what He was saying?
What is a false Christian - one who is NOT born again and one who does NOT obey the commandments of Jesus.
You seem to have missed my point about discrimination and persecution of Christians in America - it is virtually non-existent. Since the 1970’s, when Christians began to organize their political clout, their has been some backlash by secularist (lots of ranting about how Christians shouldn’t be active in the political process of this country) and legal groups to remove the signs of our Christian heritage from every public property (this is the discrimination I eluded too). I hope that clears that up for you. Real persecution of Christians occurs in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Somolia, Sudan, Ethiopea, etc.
Tony, since you are a Roman Catholic, tell me what is Jesus’ view of other religions - Hint, go to John 14:6. Are you saying that there is a way to God other than faith in the crucified and risen Christ? Are you saying that Islam is acceptable to God? Are you saying that Hinduism is acceptable to God? Are you saying that Jesus is a liar?
Are you saying, by your post, that conservative, Bible-believing Christians in America are somehow the cause of subjugation, torture and slaughter of other people in America or elsewhere?
PS - I don’t want the government to legislate anything regarding faith in Jesus Christ. Remember, CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW …………..
I love it when these christians start their arguing among each other. It’s really funny, except, think Sunnis v Shiites, catholics v Protestants, ad infinitum.
Just another absolute proof that the bible is totally innefectual. It’s like any number divided by zero- totally indeterminate. The bible is so vague, inconsistent, absurd, and contradictory that hardly any two “christians’ interpret it in the same manner.
That is incontrovertible evidence that the bible could not be the inerrent word of some god. Go ahead. Argue with me. No way.
Does anybody out there really want me to include the definition of inerrent? Hmmmm?
There are thousands of christian sects out there and each one thinks they have a corner on god. This is so pathetic that it makes my hair hurt. When I hear this crap, I want to go jump off a cliff or something more constructive.
I grieve… truely grieve for the future of a civilization that continues to hold as truth, ancient writings of pre-scientific, superstitious, primitive, warring tribes.
All that you need to do is look at the post above this one. There they go again. Jesus tap dancing christ.
If ignorance is bliss, then that is the only darn reason a christian could be happy.
bridgejumper;You arse , in part, correct;some translations of book called ‘new testament”(KJV) proclaim
‘ONLY through christ shall ye know salvation?”.
But as i said in last night’s post:
“Once you understand why YOU denounce all other possible dieties, you MIGHT begin to understand why I denounce YOURS”.
However, that will not occur because you do not attempt to understand, rather you just spew-forth, spit out, parrot, ape dogma with which you have been inculcated.You only know BELIEF , and have no other mechaniusm to acquire knowledge.
Joel,
Some translations? I believe that John 14:6 is clear in all translations.
You said, “You only know BELIEF , and have no other mechaniusm to acquire knowledge.” Joel, after you acquire knowledge you can possess BELIEF. Try it or does your irrational fear stop you?
Dale,
You said, “The bible is so vague, inconsistent, absurd, and contradictory”. Yes Dale, only to those who lack knowledge and live in darkness.
Nelief is JUST that………MERELY BELIEF
Belief is JUST that………MERELY BELIEF!
Joel,
Belief for the sake of belief is nothing. The object of your belief is what is important. Look around and use your rational mind - Consider the heavens, earth and everything that lives on the earth. Consider all the laws of nature. Consider the facts and knowledge gained through science. Consider how nature works like a finely tuned machine. Consider your own conscience. Joel, with a straight face you tell me there is no Creator.
I enjoy studying the photographs collected by the Hubble Space Telescope. One of my favorite photos is the Eagle Nebula (M16, NGC6611, Messier 16). This “cloud” in space is 9.5 light years tall or 90 TRILLION kilometers. It is but a mere micro speck in space. Countless nebula, stars, quasars, solar systems, galaxies, black holes, meteorites, comets and planets inhabit the known universe.
How is it that we came into being? Joel, I contend that a Creator exists. I am no accident.
“When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross”
Dobson, Robertson, Falwell,Bridgejumper and e-lad are among its vanguard.
Hey! No shit. A tornado just went through here and I walked out to the local junkyard and, belive it or not, there was a 1957 Edsel in mint condition sitting there with the key in the ignition.
Needless to say, I offered the guy 10 bucks and I drove her home.
I was really surprised because I thought that it took millions, perhaps billions of years for something like that to happen. But, to my good fortune, it happened in a matter of minutes. What a lucky guy I am.
Bridgejumper: you look at all the marvels of the universe and conclude a “creator did it.”And your previous posts make it clear you BELIEVE ,”we are created in his image”.
If the complexity of the universe leads you to concude it MUST have been created, then who/what created a creato complex enough to create the creation.Your answer will of course be…the Creator needs no creation in that “he” is the first prime cause.
By that same thought process we may equally conclude creation, ITSELF, is the first or prime cause and needs no prio creator—just like your creator needs no prior creator..
I choose NOT top BELIEVE in ANY earth-borne , earth-bound dieties and associated theism..You cjoose to belive in one founded 2000 years ago on a speck of rock circling an ordinary star in a unverse that is, itself, a speck of infinity.
How puny, petty….How earthno-centric, single-universe centric!
Yes, Joel, just as it happened so many times before, in many other countries.
Joel,
I pray that you find the Lord Jesus as you saviour at some point in your life. I sense that you are a younger guy. Young people always have a sense of invincibility. Once you come to terms with your mortality you will be begging for your salvation. I hope it does not come to late for you. You must come to Jesus as soon as you can. Please do not delay it. Please.
Your earthly existence is so short. I want you to spend eternity with us in the presence of God and his son, Jesus.
Think of the goal. You will be so richly rewarded.
Dale,
That 1957 Edsel is proof positive that macro evolution is a myth. Please call John McGinn and share the good news. Did the Edsel happen to have a New Testament in the glove box, King James version, bound black leather with thumb tabs. That would would be a sure fire sign that God is calling you into the ministry. Imagine that - Dale traveling through the countryside in his mint condition Edsel doing tent revival preaching.
Dale,
Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker could ride along with you and help out. Do you happen to own any white patent leather shoes?
Mark,
Well, yes, it did, in fact. and I used those thin pristine pages to roll a couple joints when I ran out of Zig Zags. There is the main proof that the bible is, as you say, very valuable.
Proof positive. And I am so happy to confirm that you do, in fact, have a hell of a good sense of humour.
Thanks Mark.
e-lad: didn’t your hear….no more easter…they founf your lord’s body….e-lad didn’t you hear….no more xmas, Joseph confessed…
Mark,
You made my day. Thanks again.
Joel,
It is obvious that you are impaired. Your spelling and your reasoning is atrocious. You are not making sense.
If you are addicted to alchohol or drugs, please get help.
If you would just pray, your prayers will be answered. You know in your heart that you wnat to escape your addictions. It is a lot easier than you think. Just ask.
Your friend in Jesus, E-lad.
e-lad; you poor ignorant misguided slug.My ‘creastor” does niot require prayer.My “creator” does not require belief.
How sad and silly that your puny,petty, puerile diety does…. or you delusionally believe it necessary.
As far as addictions…I am free of all such nonsene.But , the same cannot be said of you and your ilk: you are addiced to irrational BELIEF….which is JUST that…merely belief!
If the best you can do is irrationally conclude i have “addictions” without a smattering, smidgen, scintilla, not one iota of evidence to support such, other than clumsy key-strokes…it is little wonder your feeble mind is incapable of any reasoned thought and must repeatedly default to irrational belief.
Find comfort in your delusions if you must…but don’t
confuse them with reality.
Mark,
I have been seriously considering taking up a career in the ministry of the Lord, Jesus. From a profit standpoint it looks quite lucrative. I am pulling down about 27K, but if I would send out 50,000 requests for 200 at a cost of he0u and the return aveuir0w, I would be raking in at least 300k. To me, that would get me a few more toys.
All those ignorant people wouldn’t have a clue to my base motive, and most of them them would actually think they are doing something constructive.
Hey, why would I care?
I think I have some selling points that would attract quite a few of these people. They are the type that need some help from anywhere. It is not actually taking advantage of them. It is only providing them with the security that they desire. And, they pay you money. Perhaps you and I can join forces to take their money and promise them eternal life.
Just think about it. You only have to get one dollar from one million people,which is easy done, and we are rich.
With your sense of christianity and my marketing expertise we could pull this off in less than two years.
Lets set up a meeting and go for it.
Then we don’t have to worry about saving for our retirement any more.
These ignorant bastards don’t deserve any more or less.
I’m glad that we have a plan working for us. Big bucks. eh?
Joel,
It has no effect on me whatsoever that you atack me. I am completely secure in my belief. It is sad that you become so shrill and defensive about your belif sytem.
I bet you are a pretty good kid in your daily life. And it is obvious that you are just a kid. You will mature in time and you will have children. Only then will you begin to ponder your beliefs.
I only hope you will teach them well.
I understand, and am emphathetic with, the conflictions that you are navigatinf through.
It’s OK. Easy does it. Take your time. Keep studying and keep your mind open. Please don’t attack people of conviction because you are merely a person of conviction. You are loved by someone right? OK.
I love you too.
Respectfully yours, E-lad.
e-lad; Belief—ALL belief is just that….merely BELIEF and nothing more.
I’ll let you be king, ruler, demi-god…..indeed GOD himself in that mytical, fantasy, make believe world.
I entertain NO FALSE beliefs—because i believe NOTHING.
I rely upon reason and logic.
it’s obvious you are incapable of setting aside belief to engage in itellectual discourse, so this will be my last missive to you.
I suggest you sit on the sidelines for a LONG while learning the difference between regurgitating BELIEF with which you have been inculcated and engaging in logical discourse :premise, synthesis , conclusion.(pick up a book on loic or do on-line resaerch….your petty, punk diety jesus surely won’t condemn you to hell for learning how to reason , will he?!!?)
Fare thee well young man fare thee well.
illogical argument :
premise:There is a god;
synthesis: the bible says there is a god;
analysis: the bible is the inerrant word of god
conclusion: therefore, there is a god.
I lie repeated billions of times does not become true.
An illogical argument repeated or adopted billions of times does not become logical(or “true”).
A lie…
Other than innate intelligence, intellect is only developed to the degree, to the extent it is challenged and demanded.
Those who resort to or default to BELIEF fail to adequately challenge or demand of their intellect, and hence the intellect stagnates and withers.
Busy, busy, busy!! Perhaps I shouldn’t be spending my weekends relaxing…
I’m sorry Dale, but I am sorely tempted to spoil some of your fun, and run an identity expose` on one of my favorite posters. But I will leave that to you. All in good time, I hope.
Sincerely,
einahpetS
Besides, it would make other posters here feel a bit outnumbered.
Stephanie: please do your expose…….
leoj
einahpets: could Dal-e—-”God” forbid!—-be e-lad?
leoj
:( Sorry, I kinda got caught up in the ruse.
Is there any chance for forgiveness? I know I don’t deseve it……….
Never!! How could you be so naive as to assume I am even capable of forgiveness? You are incorrigible!
I’ll go put ashes on my head.
you’ll have toa ask Theists for forgiveness or their diety(ies)….to me…it’s just a hoot!
OK, Joel, since you are in the know, do you think I did a dirty tricK?
IS YOUR REAL NAME nixon?
No. It is Noxin. I;ll fight you if you want to.
DID YOU SEE THE MOVIE(DOUBLE JEOPARDY?) WITH RICHARD GERE AS A LAWYER DEFENDING GUY(EDWARD NORTON) ACCUSED OF MURDERING CHICAGO PRIEST; WHERE ACCUSED PURPORTEDLY HAD DUAL/SPLIT PERSONAILTY?
IT DEPENDS, AS IT DID IN THAT MOVIE, WHICH IS THE “REAL” GUY: DAL-E OR E-LAD?
IF E’-LAD IS “TRUE” personna my contempt and derision is multiplied exponentially more than i have articulated in posts to e-lad!
“primal fear” was movie, not “double jeopardy”
Dale, I forgive you.
Joel,
I think you can easily see by the predominence and sincerity of the posts who is the real person.
The delusional one was merely a need to see how it would actually feel to try to expound on biblical beliefs, combined with a conscious attempt to stir up the shit once in a while. It bordered on a cathardic experience, being smacked down and beat up by you all. In the end, though, it was just a lark.
After inventing some of those posts I actually had to go wash my hands.
And, yes, I saw the movie.
Sandspur,
I am being completely honest and sincere when I tell you that nothing in the world means more to me than your forgiveness. And if you believe that, for 50 bucks I will make sure you get to heaven.
Joel,
I think dale could be E-lad, but could E-lad be a dale? I think no way.
Dale,
I plan to book that trip with Another travel agent.
Thank you kindly, but thank you just the same.
can i get a round trip ticket?—in case I don’t like others’ delusions of heaven?
No problaemo Joel.
Just brace yourself because these christo-facist bastards are loaded with their belief systems and they are pervasive. People that hold beliefs rather than truths are the scourge of the earth since history has been recorded.
They are so irrational, that they fight the rights that have allowed them to exist.
How they gain the adherents they do is beyond my comprehension. It is not difficult to imagine this country deteriorating into an Iran-like environment. People like Jumper on the cusp of their irrational thinking would much rather join up with an equally superstitious group rather than think for themselves.
I do not yet understand how we have created a nation of intelectually devoid believers of myths.
It is easy to see the outcome if these religio-political operants are allowed to continue unopposed.
In the cause of decency and the survival of the constitution, get behind the Michelle Goldbergs of this country and smack down the religionists all you can. For your consideration by my own personal convictions. d
Dale,
Stop the BS about me being on “the cusp of irrational thinking……”. Trust me when I say I’d be one of the first to show up and confront any goof ball who would endanger the Constitution. Get it through you head my friend - American Christians aren’t the ones endangering the Constitution in this country. Far from it. You are swallowing a lie; hook, line and sinker.
Open your eyes - Michelle Goldberg is a liberal, Jewish women who slams Christians so she can put cash in her bank account. This makes her the darling of the left wing, anti-Bush, anti-Christian crowd. Ranting and raving about the supposed danger of the Christian right sells books. Nothing less, nothing more. Dale, don’t be blinded by the BS. Its all about money.
Simply put, Michelle Goldberg is an intolerant, Christian-basher who thinks she is somehow justified in spewing her innuendo, half truths and lies. I wonder if the Anti-Defamation League call her to account for her defamation of Christians.
Mark when are you going to get around to getting me those statistics? Or was that more of you just being on the cusp?
She makes money by selling books and I like reading them. I suppose you work for free. Michelle would oratorally kick the living shit out of you any day of the week with both hands tied behind her back.
Her message is one hell of a lot better than Lehaye’s stuff and all that other christian bullshit. You are the pot calling the kettle black.
You are a bigot too or else you wouldn’t have pointed out she was Jewish, you bigoted pig.
What difference does it make if she’s jewish-none.
You probably own all the left behind books and run around pointing out all the people you think will be left behind
You support your christian priestcraft. That is easy money for them, and all under the pretext that they are trying to save you! You have now exposed yourself for the bigot you are. Not to speak of your chronic homophobia.
You ought to just shut up and cut your credibility losses.
You may as well take off your sheeps clothing. You’re not fooling anybody.
I see that Ann Coulter will be speaking at the upcoming conference in Washington.
If she is a christian I am the King of Siam. I’ll bet she’s well read by you.
There was a time when I held the reigious right in mild contempt, but thanks to Mark Jumper I was able to take the next logical step and hold anybody of every religion, especially christians in hostile contempt.
Religion is an engine of grief.
Mark is an engine of intolerance.
Dale, Dale, Dale…………. I’m the bigot? Engine of intolerance? Because I simply point out that she is a Jewish person? Give me a break. She is a Jewish person who is publishing written works critical of politically active Christians. If it was the other way around, the book would have been hounded off the shelves by the Jewish thought police and political correctness patrol. She is bashing Israel’s greatest non-Jewish friends - the conservative, American Christian. I find it very interesting that the Anti-Defamation League folks haven’t reigned her in. I watched a film of Michelle speaking at a Unitarian Church. She articulate, she’s smart, she’s persuasive - she’s paranoid.
Dale,
You’re going to hold Christians in hostile contempt. Tisk, tisk, tisk.
Jim and Tammy Faye are not going to talk to you anymore if you’re gonna act like that.
I think she’s cute too.
Dale wrote: “…thanks to Mark Jumper I was able to take the next logical step and hold anybody of every religion, especially christians in hostile contempt.”
Ouch - that’s a bit harsh.
Do you remember the Kitzmiller v. Dover Intelligent Design case? Dale, all the plaintiffs (I think that there were 10 to 14 of them) were all Christians of varying denominations, who were all just as outraged as you probably were that a small group of fundamentalist crusaders were trying to stomp on the First Amendment by forcing their literal interpretation of Genesis into the science classrooms. I would suspect that in such a religiously conservative town such as Dover these plaintiffs were subject to constant insults and vilification from some of their neighbors and from published letters to the editor in the local papers. Yet they stood firm and ultimately prevailed, handing the ID(iots) a huge legal loss and setback. In addition, Judge Jones is Christian and was also a George Bush appointee to that particular federal court. Yet Judge Jones both exposed and utterly roasted these creationist clowns for the deceitful frauds that they were and wrote an extremely articulate and strongly worded decision that provides even more legal precedence against creationism and the ID(iots) that support it. It was so strongly and decisively written that Judge Jones himself has been the target of smear editorials from some of these “compassionate Christians” from the religious far-right.
Overall, I like reading your posts, and I can tell that you are very passionate about these types of issues. However, please don’t lump myself and the many other fair and open-minded Christians with the likes of Mr. Jumper. We are on the same side as you on this, and many other Church-State separation issues.
The weekend is here – have a beer! I think that Ben Franklin once said something along the lines that alcoholic beverages are proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.
Tony,
Very well stated argument.
I have been chastised a couple times before for my seeming intemperate remarks and I understand the reasoning.
In this type of venue it is easy to be somewhat more opinionated and exagerated than I might be in any other environment.
Also I do thank all those practical christians out there that see the danger from the religious right. I come from a practical christian background and most of my friends are practical christians.
I will take your suggestions under consideration regarding my future communications.
Thanks for your concern.